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State of Florida Sues CDC Over Cruise Shut Down


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23 minutes ago, cruisinghawg said:

With the NEW guidelines for vaccinated people not having to wear mask outside or inside, I wonder if CDC is feeling the heat. They have already been overturned in one instance so are their attorneys preparing them for more from this hearing yesterday? Are the politicians putting the heat on? Public had enough? Or a strong combination of all of this and more?

 

Maybe they have decided to follow the science after all?                          Nah couldn't be that

Corrosion of credibility - the public is pushing back with common sense arguments.  Throw in the law suits which are asking common sense questions.   Possible increased movement of  industry operations outside the US - they become   irrelevant.  (Just a few days ago they were calling for mask us on the private islands )  The BS needle is pegged to the "Full" level.

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Once you lose credibility or the appearance of losing credibility it's 100 times harder to gain it back.  

This new messaging of "vaccinate and you are free to go back to the old normal" has to roll down to cruising at some point.  We'll soon see retailers eliminating their mask policies, then planes and trains will follow and with each step it's harder and harder for the excessive ship policies to be upheld by the CDC. 

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

Once you lose credibility or the appearance of losing credibility it's 100 times harder to gain it back.  

This new messaging of "vaccinate and you are free to go back to the old normal" has to roll down to cruising at some point.  We'll soon see retailers eliminating their mask policies, then planes and trains will follow and with each step it's harder and harder for the excessive ship policies to be upheld by the CDC. 

This is 100% right.  It was a very good day, even if they haven't changed the CSO yet.  

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4 hours ago, twangster said:

Once you lose credibility or the appearance of losing credibility it's 100 times harder to gain it back.  

This new messaging of "vaccinate and you are free to go back to the old normal" has to roll down to cruising at some point.  We'll soon see retailers eliminating their mask policies, then planes and trains will follow and with each step it's harder and harder for the excessive ship policies to be upheld by the CDC. 

I have an interesting anecdote about that: we have a new double a team in town with a new stadium to boot. Had their home opener on Tuesday with masks everywhere and people actively trying to enforce it. Today, not a single mask in sight (except for on the staff) and we were told at the gate they were optional... Even though today was the branded mask giveaway day so they clearly weren't planning on that being the case. In states that have already done away with mandates, today was the beginning of the end with the new CDC guidance.

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7 minutes ago, LizzyBee23 said:

I have an interesting anecdote about that: we have a new double a team in town with a new stadium to boot. Had their home opener on Tuesday with masks everywhere and people actively trying to enforce it. Today, not a single mask in sight and we were told at the gate they were optional... Even though today was the branded mask giveaway day so they clearly weren't planning on that being the case. In states that have already done away with mandates, today was the beginning of the end with the new CDC guidance.

Hoping it rolls out as fast at retailers.  

If my normal grocery store holds onto a mask policy while a less favored grocery store doesn't, I'm changing stores.

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18 minutes ago, JeffB said:

In case anyone is wondering, Judge Merryday has not yet ruled on FL's law suit v. HHS/CDC. The last listing on the docket for this case was yesterday.

Because FL requested an expedited (emergency) hearing, it would not be unusual for a ruling to come this weekend.

I'll be watching.

Or immediately after the stock market closes this afternoon.................. <sarcasm>

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I know Royal is hoping for the best with this hearing but tomorrow is 5/15 and still silence from Royal on July sailings from the US. I understand there is a lot of moving pieces and Royal desperately wants to restart in mid-July but they need to provide some sort of solid update to customers with July sailings from the US. 

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A filing late today by HHS's/CDC's attorneys opposes the Amicus brief submitted by The Association of Travel Agents on the grounds that it wasn't submitted in a timely manner and complicates the hearing process. It's up to the Judge to decide to dismiss or adopt the defendant's motion. 

This is a technical move that as a matter of law has to be addressed. An Amicus brief has to be filed within 7d of the initial filing by the state of FL. That would have been by April 15th. The judge has the authority to allow entry of the Amicus brief by extending the time frame it can be submitted.

I can't see any good reason why Judge Merryday wouldn't allow the travel agent's Amicus brief. His decision is final. FL can't come back and say but, but if the judge adopts HHS/CDC's motion. Neither can HHS/CDC come back if the judge dismisses the motion.  

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Well, I've been watching the court docket. Nothing new. It's Sunday. Was hoping for a ruling this weekend. Nope.  I think litigants and the Judge are taking the day off.

Back into action tomorrow. Turns out whoever posted that the ruling might take "weeks" to which I posted "I think it's imminent" well, I was WRONG! It's been 5d if you count the day of the hearing and today. No further predictions  ?

However, some good news: FL has posted rapidly declining hospitalizations for a month. Deaths, already having dropped sharply as vaccine rolled out,  are stable if not trending down further over the last 30d. Hospitalizations and ED visits for ILI, CLI also way down. This is reflective of the demographic data that tells us serious illness in FL from SARS2 infection is becoming rare; the COVID positive cohort is almost 95% under 30.  

Since May 1st, % positivity has been below 5% state wide - the magic number at which most epidemiologist (not in the CDC) consider the virus to be controlled and circulating at low enough levels to resume normal activities. Both Broward and Miami Dade Counties, homes to PEV and Port of Miami, have posted % positivity rates below 5% for 10d. FL is at 44% vaccination levels (at least 1 shot = 10%, fully vaccinated = 34%)

Governor Desantis has deferred some activity re-openings to the counties and in both cases of Dade and Broward they've been slow to reflect the drop in risk of infection as measured by the metrics I list above. A lot of park and park activities including public pools still remain closed. I wonder if there are problems for counties hiring staff to open these activities.  Some private condo pools are still closed??? ..... and residents are up in arms over it.  Gyms have no mask requirements any longer but I was in our favorite local restaurant for brunch today and masks and table spacing still present??? Technically this is no longer needed given the metrics above. It's going to take a long time for a lot of people, including business owners who worry about liability, to get past a 15 month long COVID mitigation hangover and the fear factor of COVID itself

So, who knows but FL has been "open" (depends by county what that means) since late September 2020 and it is waaaaay safer in S. FL now than it was then. if you end up traveling to FL in July to start a cruise from PEV or Miami, the numbers don't lie. You'll be safe here by acting reasonably and making fact based, rational decisions about places and activities you want to undertake. 

Come on down ...... no, on second thought stay home. It's getting hot and the traffic is terrible.

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4 hours ago, JeffB said:

Well, I've been watching the court docket. Nothing new. It's Sunday. Was hoping for a ruling this weekend. Nope.  I think litigants and the Judge are taking the day off.

Back into action tomorrow. Turns out whoever posted that the ruling might take "weeks" to which I posted "I think it's imminent" well, I was WRONG! It's been 5d if you count the day of the hearing and today. No further predictions  ?

However, some good news: FL has posted rapidly declining hospitalizations for a month. Deaths, already having dropped sharply as vaccine rolled out,  are stable if not trending down further over the last 30d. Hospitalizations and ED visits for ILI, CLI also way down. This is reflective of the demographic data that tells us serious illness in FL from SARS2 infection is becoming rare; the COVID positive cohort is almost 95% under 30.  

Since May 1st, % positivity has been below 5% state wide - the magic number at which most epidemiologist (not in the CDC) consider the virus to be controlled and circulating at low enough levels to resume normal activities. Both Broward and Miami Dade Counties, homes to PEV and Port of Miami, have posted % positivity rates below 5% for 10d. FL is at 44% vaccination levels (at least 1 shot = 10%, fully vaccinated = 34%)

Governor Desantis has deferred some activity re-openings to the counties and in both cases of Dade and Broward they've been slow to reflect the drop in risk of infection as measured by the metrics I list above. A lot of park and park activities including public pools still remain closed. I wonder if there are problems for counties hiring staff to open these activities.  Some private condo pools are still closed??? ..... and residents are up in arms over it.  Gyms have no mask requirements any longer but I was in our favorite local restaurant for brunch today and masks and table spacing still present??? Technically this is no longer needed given the metrics above. It's going to take a long time for a lot of people, including business owners who worry about liability, to get past a 15 month long COVID mitigation hangover and the fear factor of COVID itself

So, who knows but FL has been "open" (depends by county what that means) since late September 2020 and it is waaaaay safer in S. FL now than it was then. if you end up traveling to FL in July to start a cruise from PEV or Miami, the numbers don't lie. You'll be safe here by acting reasonably and making fact based, rational decisions about places and activities you want to undertake. 

Come on down ...... no, on second thought stay home. It's getting hot and the traffic is terrible.

 

D8A85248-08A0-401E-A6CF-62B73E1F800C.jpeg

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22 minutes ago, Matt said:

Voila

Looks like American Society of Travel Advisors (“ASTA”) filed a motion in support

047123005203.pdf 216.3 kB · 5 downloads

 

8 minutes ago, nate91 said:

Things are not looking too good for the CDC here...but looking better and better for us! 

The motion in question seeks permission from the court to be allowed to file an AMICUS CURIAE BRIEF which are filed by people who typically take the position of one side in a case, in supporting a cause that has some bearing on the issues in the case. The groups most likely to file amicus briefs are businesses, trade associations, etc that are NOT a party in the action.

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@LizzyBee23is correct.

I've was busy this morning and thank @CGTLH for keeping up with the case. I get a kick out of this sort of legal maneuvering. At first I though the new document put up from the Court today was saying Judge Merryday had allowed the ATSA's Amicus Brief after HHS had whined about it. The legal jargon is annoying and it's why, I guess, lawyers make so much money. They have to look up boring case law and write a lot.

Once you get to the last of 5 pages, it says, hey, we think HHS's opposition is weak sauce. What do you think Judge?

Anyway, another day's delay while attorneys get to argue ancillary stuff. Judge Merryday, HELLO. Seems pretty obvious that you should tell Bacerra and Walenski to start figuring out how to back out of corner they painted themselves in by issuing the crazy CSO which is getting increasingly difficult to defend.   

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At some point when they are done milking the situation they'll want to be seen as great politicians who saved the people so they'll be eager to declare "mission accomplished".  A lot of back patting will occur and babies will be declared safe to be kissed by politicians all over the country, again.  At that point the PHE will end.  

 

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25 minutes ago, UNCFanatik said:

What about the Public Health Emergency Order? I know it was renewed in April? Will it be renewed it July? Will they let it expire? 

Federal or State's PHEs? Pretty sure you mean the fed's PHE. There are multiple layers of PHE's impacting all mitigation measures including mask mandates. I made this post just a while ago in response to a NJ poster stating NJ was going to drop mask mandates. I think this will answer your question.........

 

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11 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

It will definitely be renewed, since without it there's no CSO or any other kind of covid mitigation "guidance"

I addressed this, sort-of, in the post I linked to above. Reading the tea leaves, my take is that Bacerra is on the outs mostly over immigration but Walneski is wetting the bed in Congressional testimony on CDC guidance. I think there are people in Congress, the Executive and Judicial branches that wonder about her and the apparently confusing, often contradictory stuff coming out of her office. This addresses the always political nature of the development of federal policy. 

What's the "threshold for letting the PHE expire? I can make a case by using the metrics I believe are the most important that we have left the public health emergency domain. This is especially true if one takes the view that the Republic is a federal system and a lot of power is granted to the states. Therefor, let the states decide on where they are with the pandemic. The states don't really have a clear path to move away from mitigation mandates they were able to issue based on the power to issue them on the grounds of a nationally declared PHE without letting the national PHE expire. Counties can't back off until their state's PHEs expire. I suppose state's could just end their PHEs but I think they're waiting on the Feds to end theirs. JMO

I believe Walneski and Bacerra are both aware of compelling reasons to either cancel the PHE early or just let it expire on June 29th. That would be consistent with the direction the president has laid out - back to some form of normal on the 4th. 

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29 minutes ago, Loops said:

Back in March and April Walensky stated that she had feelings of “impending doom” and was “scared” regarding a resurgence in COVID … the only impending doom she should be feeling is her “resignation” from the CDC.

She'll survive but not unscathed. The Peter Principle applies here. She is out of her depth. She came from the position of Infection Control Director at a large hospital ..... large meaning a whole lot smaller than the 10K CDC employees who are very likely as difficult to get going in one direction as herding cats. Still, no sympathy from me. She had an opportunity to really stand up and stand out. Instead she's really been awful, publicly anyway. No one is leaking anything untoward about her.... yet. 

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3 hours ago, twangster said:

I've always considered the lawsuit to be a longshot.  If the judge does rule on the injunction in favor of Florida that speaks volumes to how far out of touch she has taken the CDC.  

She inherited it from Robert Redfield her predecessor. It's hard to trace how the CSO came to be but it was issued months before this poor woman got saddled with it. What would have been nice if she used her background and bona fides (she has an impressive resume) to say something like, look, the CSO is behind the times and the science, we're going to collaborate with the cruise industry to develop something that is going to allow that great industry to get back to sailing, she would have won my heart and mind. Instead she's bumbled through the politics of this thing and inappropriately latched on to the BS that sees cruise ships as "petri dishes" for the spread of disease.    

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18 minutes ago, JeffB said:

She inherited it from Robert Redfield her predecessor. It's hard to trace how the CSO came to be but it was issued months before this poor woman got saddled with it. What would have been nice if she used her background and bona fides (she has an impressive resume) to say something like, look, the CSO is behind the times and the science, we're going to collaborate with the cruise industry to develop something that is going to allow that great industry to get back to sailing, she would have won my heart and mind. Instead she's bumbled through the politics of this thing and inappropriately latched on to the BS that sees cruise ships as "petri dishes" for the spread of disease.    

The earlier interaction with a senate committee where she claimed she had no control over the CSO and it was some other unknown agency that did told us everything we need to know.  It would be one thing to say that to the media but to say that to a senator in a committee meeting was pretty eye opening.  

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The CSO was hastily thrown together.  It was crafted to appear to be a step towards letting ships sail with enough choke points to ensure that never happened.  It was never designed to provide a workable process for ships sailing.  It's only goal was to buy time. 

For the real objective it's been a huge success fully embraced and exploited by the new leadership that took over after the election.  

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10 hours ago, twangster said:

The CSO was hastily thrown together.  It was crafted to appear to be a step towards letting ships sail with enough choke points to ensure that never happened.  It was never designed to provide a workable process for ships sailing.  It's only goal was to buy time. 

I'd offer the CSO is a result of sheer bureaucratic incompetence and leadership. Throw in a penchant within the HHS organization for ultra-conservativism with regard to facts and the science, poor leadership and an unjustifiable view of the risk of disease spread aboard a cruise ship, you've got the CSO - a laughable document but not an unexpected one all things considered. 

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ORDER appointing Joseph H. Varner III as mediator; designating James H. Percival as lead counsel; setting JUNE 1, 2021 as the mediation deadline; directing counsel to file a notice within two days giving the date and time of mediation. The notice of mediation is due May 20, 2021. Signed by Judge Steven D. Merryday on 5/18/2021.

https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/51_047123010546_OrderAppointingMediator.pdf
https://www.2150.com/files/cc/8_21-cv-00839-SDM-AAS/52_047123010614_OrderMediationAppearance.pdf


Florida v. HHS, CDC (2150.com)

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