CDC officially says it is SAFE for fully vaccinated people to travel!

[JLMoran]

But, no big surprise... they still don’t recommend that anyone actually go out and travel just yet. Still, this is basically the CDC conceding that those who are fully vaccinated can make their own decisions about whether to go on vacation, and they won’t say no.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/02/cdc-fully-vaccinated-may-travel/

[twangster]

I'm left wondering too if this is a carrot being dangled for any on the fence undecided if they will vaccinate.

"If you vaccinate you can do stuff".

I don't think it signals a change is in the wind for the cruise industry.

[Matt]

Just another opportunity to drive a bigger wedge into the double standard of travel by cruise ship versus literally any other form of travel

[smokeybandit]

Anyone hoping their June/July cruises still happen just got their hopes dashed.

[JeffB]

I get the complexity of the science that the CDC has to wade through in making recommendations. Politics is obviously playing a part in public policy statements like this. It's noteworthy that the CDC is at least 2w, maybe 4, behind the facts on the ground. Their claim that as new data is received, changes can be made rings hollow with me. What took you so long to catch up with what most  people that follow this stuff know and that people in the know that have been vaccinated have been pretty much doing whatever they want, including flying on airplanes, since, oh, maybe mid January when lots of 65+yo's were getting vaccinated by then.  So, no, I'm not impressed. I'm sure the CDC is very pleased with itself. 

I do think this new travel guidance foretells that the CDC may issue the "technical details" they've been promising for over 4 months to the cruise industry. Mayor Cava, of Miami-Dade Co's statement on Twitter suggests something may be forthcoming on that. I'm not holding my breath. We've heard this before. Like Michael Bailey, I'm feeling pretty sure that whatever guidance they do release won't be much different that the what was outlined in October - a 4 phase return to cruising with each ship being required to pass muster before passengers can board and sail. There may be a casual nod from the CDC regarding the impact that requiring vaccinations to board might have but that will be about it. ANd then we have this ........

.........FL's Governor Desantis just issued an EO banning businesses in FL from requiring any kind of documentation of vaccination to enter. This is going to be a mess.    

[princevaliantus]

12 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I get the complexity of the science that the CDC has to wade through in making recommendations. Politics is obviously playing a part in public policy statements like this. It's noteworthy that the CDC is at least 2w, maybe 4, behind the facts on the ground. Their claim that as new data is received, changes can be made rings hollow with me. What took you so long to catch up with what most  people that follow this stuff know and that people in the know that have been vaccinated have been pretty much doing whatever they want, including flying on airplanes, since, oh, maybe mid January when lots of 65+yo's were getting vaccinated by then.  So, no, I'm not impressed. I'm sure the CDC is very pleased with itself. 

I do think this new travel guidance foretells that the CDC may issue the "technical details" they've been promising for over 4 months to the cruise industry. Mayor Cava, of Miami-Dade Co's statement on Twitter suggests something may be forthcoming on that. I'm not holding my breath. We've heard this before. Like Michael Bailey, I'm feeling pretty sure that whatever guidance they do release won't be much different that the what was outlined in October - a 4 phase return to cruising with each ship being required to pass muster before passengers can board and sail. There may be a casual nod from the CDC regarding the impact that requiring vaccinations to board might have but that will be about it. ANd then we have this ........

.........FL's Governor Desantis just issued an EO banning businesses in FL from requiring any kind of documentation of vaccination to enter. This is going to be a mess.    

To clarify, this is directed ONLY to businesses conducting in the State of Florida. Doesn't include cruises as that is out of DeSantis reach.

[CGTLH]

33 minutes ago, JeffB said:

FL's Governor Desantis just issued an EO banning businesses in FL from requiring any kind of documentation of vaccination to enter.

Copy of the Executive Order: https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/orders/2021/EO_21-81.pdf

[TXcruzer]

42 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I get the complexity of the science that the CDC has to wade through in making recommendations. Politics is obviously playing a part in public policy statements like this. It's noteworthy that the CDC is at least 2w, maybe 4, behind the facts on the ground. Their claim that as new data is received, changes can be made rings hollow with me. What took you so long to catch up with what most  people that follow this stuff know and that people in the know that have been vaccinated have been pretty much doing whatever they want, including flying on airplanes, since, oh, maybe mid January when lots of 65+yo's were getting vaccinated by then.  So, no, I'm not impressed. I'm sure the CDC is very pleased with itself. 

I do think this new travel guidance foretells that the CDC may issue the "technical details" they've been promising for over 4 months to the cruise industry. Mayor Cava, of Miami-Dade Co's statement on Twitter suggests something may be forthcoming on that. I'm not holding my breath. We've heard this before. Like Michael Bailey, I'm feeling pretty sure that whatever guidance they do release won't be much different that the what was outlined in October - a 4 phase return to cruising with each ship being required to pass muster before passengers can board and sail. There may be a casual nod from the CDC regarding the impact that requiring vaccinations to board might have but that will be about it. ANd then we have this ........

.........FL's Governor Desantis just issued an EO banning businesses in FL from requiring any kind of documentation of vaccination to enter. This is going to be a mess.    

The Governor can not forbid a private business from making their own rules regarding entry.

[JeffB]

Thanks for that. I had not read the details of the EO from the new sources I scan. I didn't think Desantis could touch the cruise ships. However, I'm 100% behind vaccination passports and a requirement for them to enter a business establishment, sports event or concert. Generally, I'm opposed to the unlimited powers granted to governments by a declaration of a public health emergency. That needs to get thought through next time with decisions about extending or canceling the declaration left to a panel of both physical and mental health experts along with panel members that include economists and business people.

But not vaccine passports. #1 it's an incentive to get vaccinated or obtain a valid doctor's excuse why you can't get vaccinated. You have to have a driver's license, right? Part of that is to make sure you know the rules of the road and operate a motor vehicle safely and held accountable when you fail to do that.   

[JeffB]

8 minutes ago, TXcruzer said:

The Governor can not forbid a private business from making their own rules regarding entry.

Section 2. Businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business.

Section 3. All executive agencies under my direction shall work to ensure businesses comply with this order. Any provision of Florida Statutes is hereby suspended solely to the extent it restricts a Florida agency from requiring compliance with this order as a condition for a license, permit, or other state authorization necessary for conducting business in Florida. Section 4. All businesses must comply with this order to be eligible for grants or contracts funded through state revenue.

I don't see that in the EO. If you have a business license in the state of FL, you can't require proof of vaccination to receive services that business is offering. The rejoinder in Section 3 says that businesses are not restricted from imposing their own health protocols as long as those aren't a requirement to show proof of a vaccination.

[Oliver]

I wish that the CDC would compromise with the cruise industry by requiring vaccination for everyone 16 and up, and require a negative test prior to boarding for children under 16. I know some people who don’t want to get the vaccine wouldn’t be happy but at least this could be a temporary solution. Not saying the industry should require vaccination permanently.  I’ll bet most cruise lines would be ok with that just to get sailing and get revenue again. There might be some people who think “Well Royal Caribbean is requiring vaccination right now, I’ll never sail with them again! It’s my right to choose! “ But they are already requiring vaccination on some cruises. I don’t think that would be the vast majority of people. 

[CGTLH]

Guess the question becomes what is classified as "documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination". Would the card you get when vaccinated fall under this category.

The concern becomes what if the CDC mandates passengers boarding a cruise ship to be vaccinated and provide proof. If a ship is sailing out of Florida how would it be in compliance not violating the EO and satisfying possible CDC order.

[Oliver]

7 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Guess the question becomes what is classified as "documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination". Would the card you get when vaccinated fall under this category.

The concern becomes what if the CDC mandates passengers boarding a cruise ship to be vaccinated and provide proof. If a ship is sailing out of Florida how would it be in compliance not violating the EO and satisfying possible CDC order.

I don’t know but Royal is already requiring vaccination on some cruises. They must have some idea. 

[CGTLH]

6 minutes ago, Oliver said:

I don’t know but Royal is already requiring vaccination on some cruises. They must have some idea. 

Those are ships sailing outside of Florida's jurisdiction.

[Oliver]

6 minutes ago, CGTLH said:

Those are ships sailing outside of Florida's jurisdiction.

Yes I know that. I’m just saying it’s possible. If the Governor of Florida wants the cruise industry business and money then he needs to compromise just like the CDC.

[JeffB]

First, the EO he just signed applies only to businesses that are operating in FL with a FL issued business license. Cruise ships aren't that and I think that was addressed in several posts above.

I don't know where to find this and I'm no expert in Maritime law but its my guess that ships operating from US ports are not subject to laws that might otherwise be in effect and that cover the port itself. You may recall that incidents involving crimes committed aboard ships are rarely tuned over to local authorities. Maritime authorities that a foreign flagged cruise ship agree to be subject to adjudicate these crimes. 

 I will grant it's "possible" that the Desantis EO baring the use of vaccination passports might apply to cruise ships operating from FL ports but I highly doubt it.

This is going to come out in an investigative article this weekend from one of S. FL's, Orlando's or Tampa's papers. So, stand by for confirmation that the EO doesn't apply to cruise ships and they can lawfully require vaccinations to board.

[Ogilthorpe]

I'm sure this will be analyzed and debated. An observation: when in Port, there are local laws that apply. The casino is closed, and sales tax is charged on drinks in some (if not all ) states for example. This could prove interesting.

[smokeybandit]

10 minutes ago, Ogilthorpe said:

I'm sure this will be analyzed and debated. An observation: when in Port, there are local laws that apply. The casino is closed, and sales tax is charged on drinks in some (if not all ) states for example. This could prove interesting.

Plenty of workarounds since one could upload their vaccine card image before arriving in Florida.

[coneyraven]

32 minutes ago, Oliver said:

I don’t know but Royal is already requiring vaccination on some cruises. They must have some idea. 

I'm not sure it's Royal requiring it .... I'm thinking it's the countries requiring it, forcing Royal to comply.

[smokeybandit]

8 minutes ago, coneyraven said:

I'm not sure it's Royal requiring it .... I'm thinking it's the countries requiring it, forcing Royal to comply.

I'd like to know if that's true since no country that RC is operating in is requiring vaccines for incoming passengers (Israel of course isn't allowing any foreign tourists into the country).

[twangster]

It does introduce a possible hindrance to a US cruise ship restart in Florida.  

The cruise lines may have been able to use a vaccine requirement to satisfy the CDC.  Up until this point the cruise lines could have said "we will require proof of vaccination, CDC let us sail".  Now the cruise lines may not have that option, not in Florida.

If the CDC or any agency in the federal government imposes this requirement on any business it begs the question if that business can operate in Florida now.  Same with airlines IF they went there or were forced to go there by the federal government.

DeSantis may have inadvertently set the cruise industry back, further delaying a Florida restart.

  

[twangster]

This could also make any country that a Florida based cruise ship will visit hesitant to allow the ship to visit.  If masses of unvaccinated are arriving into a country, they could decline to participate on the itinerary.

They might be willing accept the risk for a few hundred passengers on planes as a means to allow some limited tourism but receiving 3,000 passengers on a ship is a whole different level of risk.  Multiple ships from different lines would mean thousands more, like between 6,000 and 9,000.  That's very different than a few hundred on a couple of flights.

[smokeybandit]

I'm not at all concerned about this EO and Florida-based cruises.

 

Plus we don't even know yet if RC will require vaccines for American homeport cruises.

[cruisellama]

2 hours ago, coneyraven said:

I'm not sure it's Royal requiring it .... I'm thinking it's the countries requiring it, forcing Royal to comply.

True.  Royal is requiring crew, but its actually the port country gov'ts imposing the V rule.  In a way, the country rule takes the heat off the business, but the business could require.   Watch what happens for concert and sport arena venue admission requirements.  

But would not surprise me if CDC imposes the rule early or later in the year as it certainly reduces risk of infection and spread.  It may be the only way we start seeing things move out of US ports.  Time will tell - they'll be watching Nassau, St. Maarten, Barbados etc to see how that experiment works.   If as successful as Singapore - should grease the skids.

[CoupleOfCruisers]

5 hours ago, JeffB said:

Thanks for that. I had not read the details of the EO from the new sources I scan. I didn't think Desantis could touch the cruise ships. However, I'm 100% behind vaccination passports and a requirement for them to enter a business establishment, sports event or concert. Generally, I'm opposed to the unlimited powers granted to governments by a declaration of a public health emergency. That needs to get thought through next time with decisions about extending or canceling the declaration left to a panel of both physical and mental health experts along with panel members that include economists and business people.

But not vaccine passports. #1 it's an incentive to get vaccinated or obtain a valid doctor's excuse why you can't get vaccinated. You have to have a driver's license, right? Part of that is to make sure you know the rules of the road and operate a motor vehicle safely and held accountable when you fail to do that.   

Why does a vaccinated person care or need to know if another person is or is not vaccinated? I’ve had the vaccine so I don’t care if Joe Blow didn’t get it, because I'm protected. Just like I get a flu shot but many people do not.  
 

Sorry I for one oppose vaccine passports. What’s next? Let’s have mental health passports we should know who takes Prozac or other drugs used to treat depression, schizophrenic, manic depression or even Alzheimers. Majority of mass shooters took these kind of medicines. Right on label it says can cause psychotic episodes so hey maybe people on them should not be allowed in crowds. I know it's easy to say that absurd but it's a slippery slope we are traveling down. 

Or maybe Government will now use the excuse of general good to give us all kinds of injections!

Requiring a Vaccine passport means someone who is opposed to getting vaccine will Basically have no choice. A 25 year old women who may want children has to have a vaccine to participate in society. Even though no studies have been done on the vaccines effects on reproductive organs or unborn children. The FDA has not even approved these vaccines. They have only authorized them for emergency use. 

My Goodness it's frightening to see how easy people buy into the propaganda & fear they will give up their liberty and control. What's especially funny is so many now cry that you shouldn't need an ID to vote.....yet want you to show proof of a medical procedure! Where is the my body my choice crowd? 

I value your opinion This is just mine. 

[JeffB]

Quote

I value your opinion This is just mine. 

Your entitled.

Moving on beyond this controversial subject of vaccine passports ......... I don't get the impression that the countries that have allowed cruise ships to operate from their ports are requiring cruise lines to adopt a policy that all passengers and crew will be vaccinated.

The policy of vaccinating crew adopted by the major lines emerged before the announcements that passenger sailings would begin from selected foreign ports. My take is that the cruise lines health panels discussing vaccines determined that adopting a policy that all passengers will require proof of vaccination before boarding was a proper step in moving forward toward more cruise ship operations. This is especially practical in countries that have low levels of circulating virus and want to keep it that way. I see it as bone the cruise lines are throwing to the Bahamian and St. Maarten Governments.

I also agree with Smokeybandit ........ the Desantis EO barring the use of vaccine passports by businesses operating in FL under FL business licenses isn't going to affect cruise ships, when and if they obtain clearance from the CDC to operate from US ports, at all. 

[twangster]

This new guidance from the CDC is consistent with what many developed countries are thinking or doing.  Vaccinated equates to lower risk.

You don't have to look very far to find evidence of many developed nations trying to figure out the vaccinated passport concept, if it can be done, if it should be done, how to do it, etc.

If it is right, or not, is a valid question and I'm not trying to advocate one way or the other in this response.

Many would be travelers are faced with vaccination requirements to travel and have been for a long time.  This is particularly evident when a would be traveler isn't from a developed nation.  They may face a list of vaccination requirements to travel.  No vaccination?  No travel VISA.  Most of us haven't been subject to these requirements but they have long been there.  Some popular vaccination requirements for international travel include yellow fever, meningococcal disease and Poliomyelitis (Polio) for example.  Some countries list these vaccines as "recommended" and some countries have vaccine "requirements" depending on one's travel history and not their actual citizenship.

A major difference when looking at our current situation rests in the emergency use approval of the vaccines in question.  Fast forward several years into the future and presumably some of these vaccines will be fully approved.

The issue then becomes how do we move forward from where we are today with emergency use vaccines into the future 5, 10 or 30 years from now when presumably there will be fully approved mainstream vaccines available?

In the 14th century it was common during times of mass disease for arriving ships to be placed in isolation for 40 days.  The ship remained off shore and If the disease wasn't evident after 40 days the ship was then allowed to arrive.  The word "quarantine" has roots in maritime use meaning forty days, the length of time for isolation required for arriving ships.  Technically a 14 day quarantine is an oxymoron since quarantine by definition is/was 40 days.  

How would have the world behaved in the 14th century if a passenger on a ship could prove they had been given a vaccine for the bubonic plague?  "Here's my bubonic passport, let me in"  while the rest of ship remains in quarantine for 40 days.   There were no vaccines in those days so it's a hypothetical scenario. 

In some ways we've come a long ways merely by having an emergency use vaccine available to us.  In other ways we are no better off than travelers in the 14th century facing travel restrictions should we choose to travel by ship.  Six hundred years later and not much has changed. 

[twangster]

I think we all should exercise a lot of caution with respect to sharing personal health choices and information with any private business.  

If a sports venue or movie theater starts building a database with my health information that may seem innocent enough for this particular virus but where is this going?  Will information be used to target sales and promotions?  What about discounts?  Will my health information be shared or sold to other businesses so a different unrelated business can target sales to me?

It's one thing for a government to request vaccine data when someone arrives for entry into a country.  It's another matter when private business begins requiring this data as a condition to enter a business or purchase a service.

I avoid many social media platforms for this reason - they are really just trying to gather a lot of personal details about you.  What they do with that information is the real danger.   

[deep1]

20 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

To clarify, this is directed ONLY to businesses conducting in the State of Florida. Doesn't include cruises as that is out of DeSantis reach.

It could get sticky with the CDC pushing for port workers to be vaccinated...  That would fall back into state Jurisdiction. (I think) The whole VAC thing really complicates a lot of areas.... 

 

[smokeybandit]

With states opening up vax to everyone anyway, getting all shoreside support people vaccinated shouldn't be an issue.

By the time these stupid shoreside agreements are finally blessed by the CDC, you'll be able to go to your local CVS and get a vaccine without an appointment.

[princevaliantus]

1 hour ago, deep1 said:

It could get sticky with the CDC pushing for port workers to be vaccinated...  That would fall back into state Jurisdiction. (I think) The whole VAC thing really complicates a lot of areas.... 

 

Port workers are Federal employees. Unless there are employed by a private entity at the port.

[deep1]

1 hour ago, princevaliantus said:

Port workers are Federal employees. Unless there are employed by a private entity at the port.

We  have federal "TWIC" clearance but many  are independently employed and under contract.  In the northern ports they are heavily unionized.  The terminals are often manned in several positions with the Cruise line staffs. Then you have various vendors , suppliers, purveyors, pilots, tugs, etc. 

[twangster]

1 hour ago, princevaliantus said:

Port workers are Federal employees. Unless there are employed by a private entity at the port.

Can you provide an example of the port workers who are federal employees?

[JeffB]

Customs and Immigration.

[twangster]

33 minutes ago, JeffB said:

Customs and Immigration.

And USCG.  

[deep1]

39 minutes ago, twangster said:

And USCG.  

I answer most often to USCG. There are other law enforcement agencies operating in most ports as well. I saw  somewhere today Jersey mentioned. Wow! They have a pile of agencies. USCG, DHS, Border Patrol,  US Customs and Immigration, NYPD Harbor Patrol, NJ Marine Police,  Close to the bases or ammo pier add NAVY... 

[twangster]

12 minutes ago, deep1 said:

I answer most often to USCG. There are other law enforcement agencies operating in most ports as well. I saw  somewhere today Jersey mentioned. Wow! They have a pile of agencies. USCG, DHS, Border Patrol,  US Customs and Immigration, NYPD Harbor Patrol, NJ Marine Police,  Close to the bases or ammo pier add NAVY... 

There's always local LEOs.   

I'm also TWIC card holder.  That's my favorite ID to use when returning to a ship at a US port.  Works good at TSA as well, since it's their program  

[deep1]

6 minutes ago, twangster said:

There's always local LEOs.   

I'm also TWIC card holder.  That's my favorite ID to use when returning to a ship at a US port.  Works good at TSA as well, since it's their program  

Flying to South Africa years back, ticket agent entered wrong middle initial for me. At Palm Beach they weren't going to let me board. I was fumbling through ID's (Twic included) and they waved me through. Got to JFK and they were all over me about the middle initial . Same thing... Except I heard the guy say "TWIC!"  Waved right through  again...  If I present it in most ports it gets the "yes sir"  treatment.  

[RCVoyager]

6 hours ago, twangster said:

There's always local LEOs.   

I'm also TWIC card holder.  That's my favorite ID to use when returning to a ship at a US port.  Works good at TSA as well, since it's their program  

Twangster, I always read and appreciate your thoughts on most subjects, and mostly agree.  But, what is TWIC?

[VACruiser]

6 hours ago, RCVoyager said:

Twangster, I always read and appreciate your thoughts on most subjects, and mostly agree.  But, what is TWIC?

Transportation Worker Identity Card. This card is issued by the United States Transportation Security Administration and the United States Coast Guard. Individuals must have a TWIC to gain access to secure maritime facilities. These often include ships, ferries, dockside warehouses and port customs offices.