Jump to content

Congress probing White House influence over CDC's cruise 'no-sail' order


Recommended Posts

Have to agree with @twangster I COMPLETELY understand the dangers of COVID 19, but also understand that it is not as deadly as they first thought it was.  I also know that cruising can resume with certain things in place where it will be safer than going to the local Walmart.  I know that they will clean the surfaces far more than grocery stores do.  I know that they will also be more inclined to enforce social distancing as well.  I have no worries that they can and will do the right thing for their customers, there are too many cameras and people that are  going to be pointing the finger.  The cruise industry as a whole has way too much to loose! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's pretty hard to discuss this without getting into politics, because the very question being asked is to what extent should political actors (the WH) have influence over the decisions of an agency that you'd expect to be fairly independent on matters within its competence (CDC).  

However, those who are eager to cruise should be very concerned by some of the language used by the Representative leading the investigation: " 'These ships shouldn’t leave port until we know passengers and crew will be safe and the ships won’t again become global vectors of disease,' Maloney said in a release."  

Even if cruises begin in December or early January, one wonders whether they'll continue after January 20th.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, danv3 said:

However, those who are eager to cruise should be very concerned by some of the language used by the Representative leading the investigation: " 'These ships shouldn’t leave port until we know passengers and crew will be safe and the ships won’t again become global vectors of disease,' Maloney said in a release."  

That verbiage is likely coming from someone at the CDC.  The CDC has publicly stated that ships should not sail until the virus is completely over.  I've interpreted that to mean the CDC doesn't want ships sailing until well into 2022 or 2023 when the last remnant of the virus has disappeared which is what I believe the CDC's end game really is.  The CDC would be perfectly fine if all cruise ships vanished from the earth.  This is their opportunity to create that outcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CDC has a "misapplied"  authority for this particular industry.  They don't control the airline, hotel/resort or other industries.  But cruise lines sit in their laps because legislators never took the time (until now) to see where regulatory control should lie.  CDC is definitely a stake holder, but do not hold expertise on maritime operations or overall safety.  The proposed legislation from the FL senators can right the ship on this.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, cruisellama said:

CDC has a "misapplied"  authority for this particular industry.  They don't control the airline, hotel/resort or other industries.  But cruise lines sit in their laps because legislators never took the time (until now) to see where regulatory control should lie.  

Please expand on this as it pertains/applies to "misapplied authority"??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cruisellama's post makes sense. One has to understand how the NSO went down. CDC, as part of the Pandemic Task Force, recommended, the executive concurred and the DHS published and is responsible for enforcing the NSO.  The Task Force headed by Pence continues to take inputs from agencies and stake holders, decides on policy and has the appropriate agency execute.

In this context it's another politically motivated wild goose chase for Congress to "investigate inappropriate WH influence on the CDC." The WH in the form of VP Pence IS and very appropriately making pandemic policy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

Please expand on this as it pertains/applies to "misapplied authority"??

Used an awkward word.   By "misapplied", I'm referring to the CDC being given sole authority for leading oversight of cruise industry by HHS. Authority is misapplied by HHS or other executive branch departments.  Would think DoT or DoC would have been a lead oversight agency, with HHS as a stakeholder.   CDC is not the right match for sole oversight of the cruise industry.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've personally found it difficult to remain positive about the likelihood of cruising restarting given the torrent of "bad" COVID news. Let's take stock:

New case numbers are increasing. That is inevitable given exponential growth. More cases beget, well, more new cases ...... x, 2x, 4x,16x and so forth. Theoretically, unless you eliminate the virus there will be growth. The WHO and the CDC seem to have settled on a 5% percent positive rate in testing presumes containment of the virus.  

I've argued that managing your responses to the pandemic based on absolute new case numbers or any of its derivatives is a flawed approach. What is more important to look at regionally and locally is disease burden and there are numerous data points that enable officials to do that. The COVID Tracking Project is a good single source place to get data:

Hopkinshttps://covidtracking.com/data/charts/all-metrics-per-state

What conclusions you draw from it that guide policy formulation is another thing altogether. This is where we get into gray areas where it's hard to determine, for example, if one mitigation measure makes sense and one doesn't. The goal should be to limit disease burden. While you can argue that absolute case numbers and disease burden are intimately connected they often aren't. That is because we've learned that disease burden is very different by age grouping. We can also see, right now, with case numbers increasing, CFR (a proxy measure of disease burden) has remained almost constant if not down trending. Moreover the growth trends of other disease burden metrics like ED visits, hospitilizations, etc. are not accelerating at the same levels and, in fact in more regions than not, they are decelerating. Of course, there are local exceptions but one should not generalize a local occurrence to the nation and that is done all the time.  None of this gets reported by the lay press. NONE. Full stop. This should make us all skeptical of media reports describing dire consequences from increasing case numbers. 

Let's apply this to the NSO. The STS Plan is a reasonable, very complete mitigation plan given the risk of congregate settings the CDC frets about. It's being successfully practiced in Europe and Asia. Now let's place this up against the torrent of "bad" COVID news and the politically charged atmosphere, the terrible and unfair rap cruise lines got in March, ground staked out and reputations that have to be protected and I think it would be a miracle to see revenue producing cruise operations restart in 2020. It could happen but it's a long shot given the misinformation mitigating against a restart that is out there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, cruisellama said:

Used an awkward word.   By "misapplied", I'm referring to the CDC being given sole authority for leading oversight of cruise industry by HHS. Authority is misapplied by HHS or other executive branch departments.  Would think DoT or DoC would have been a lead oversight agency, with HHS as a stakeholder.   CDC is not the right match for sole oversight of the cruise industry.  

Aaaah....total misinformation. Let me try to clear what & how all this came about. Here goes:

A) On March 13, 2020, Cruise lines, hit hard by COVID-19 pandemic, announced they would voluntarily halt operations in the U.S. for 30 days.

B) At 3:21PM, same day, an announcement was made by President Trump which read, “At my request, effective midnight tonight, Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and MSC have all agreed to suspend outbound cruises for thirty days. It is a great and important industry – it will be kept that way!Trump has this authority and power under 50 U.S. Code §218-222.

C) Trump’s Pick for CDC Director was Robert Redfield. The CDC is a component of the HHC whom both report to Trump.
D) To protect the health of people living in the United States, Congress passed certain laws giving the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) the authority to prevent the introduction and spread of contagious diseases in the United States. The HHS Secretary delegated this authority to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and operations are carried out by the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ) within CDC. DGMQ works to fulfill this responsibility through its operations at ports of entry, administration of interstate and foreign quarantine regulations, and establishment of requirements for the medical examination of individuals coming to live and work in the United States.

Federal regulations apply to the following if they are coming in to the United States from another country by land, air, or sea:

  • Any person (including U.S. citizens, legal permanent residents, and foreign nationals)
  • Conveyances (airplane, ship, bus, or train)
  • Animals regulated by CDC
  • Articles (bushmeat, hunting trophies, or other animal products made from CDC-regulated animals; some goatskin drums; and other items that might be infectious to people)

E) In sum, the CDC are just enforcing said rules, regulations and laws passed by Congress.  The advisories from the State Department and the CDC were recommended by the White House coronavirus task force headed by V.P. Pence, and the administration stated Trump and Vice President Pence knows about these recommendations advance.

There's alot of political play going on and CDC is not the right person to take full blame. Trump closed the ports back in March. Trump should open it. What is Trump waiting for??

 

 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, JeffB said:

That is because we've learned that disease burden is very different by age grouping.

We have to allow for a variety of meanings with "disease burden", though, no? Among the elderly and high-risk patients with co-morbidity, increased illness means a "disease burden" of higher ER and ICU usage; increased needs for still-limited PPE, medicines, and other resources; and other near-term burdens to prevent death.

But in the younger cohorts there is a longer-term "disease burden". It does not overwhelm the hospitals with cases, since most recover at home. But we are seeing more and more that these younger people develop long-term health issues -- strokes and heart attacks in the worst cases; lung scarring, kidney damage, heart damage, even neurological and brain issues in the rest. And these long-term burdens also increase the toll on our medical systems, their families, and society at large; it's just not all at once.

Some of these people will die earlier than expected. Most will live a normal lifespan, but with random symptoms that go on for months, maybe even years. And we could discover years from now that just as Chicken Pox can remain in the body and reactivate as Shingles later in life, this virus might stick around in long-term patients and reactivate from time to time as something just as bad or worse than the original disease.

I wholeheartedly agree that the CDC is overstepping with its treatment of the cruising industry relative to everything else. But I don't think they're overstepping to want to keep this disease spread as small as possible among everyone, not just the elderly and high-risk. We have enough chronic conditions that a good chunk of the populace has to deal with for most or all of their lives -- asthma, diabetes, severe food allergies,... Let's not add long-term Covid-19 symptoms to that list any more than we have to.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A small quibble princevaliantus although I thing you're on the right track. I don't believe that the CDC has any enforcement role on maritime operations although I get that they are providing an aspect of infection control through immigration enforcement by DGMQ.

Enforcing port closures, I believe, falls to the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The agency doing the enforcing is the USCG. Therefore the Pandemic Response Team acting as the executive becomes the sole authority for either extending or letting the current NSO expire on October 31st. The CDC remains in an advisory role to the Pandemic Response Team. Pence can consider what the CDC recommends; he can consider the cruise industry's STS plan; he can weigh the costs v. PH benefits/risks and then decide whether to extend or let expire the NSO. If he decides to let the NSO expire, acting as the executive, he'll put into motion the steps necessary to call the USCG off.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, JLMoran said:

I don't think they're overstepping to want to keep this disease spread as small as possible among everyone, not just the elderly and high-risk. We have enough chronic conditions that a good chunk of the populace has to deal with for most or all of their lives -- asthma, diabetes, severe food allergies,... Let's not add long-term Covid-19 symptoms to that list any more than we have to.

Can you quantify the degree to which "long term Covid-19 symptoms" contribute to the public health impact of other known chronic conditions you wish to group these in? Is there evidence that "other near-term burdens to prevent death" that you mention haven't been completely overcome or at the least inovatively ameliorated?

I tend not to deal in "could." It is could happen but then doesn't that is inappropriately contributing to policy making errors when it comes to COVID responses. My take is we've seen a lot of that coming from the CDC.

I will deal in facts. We know what the CFR is and it is low, much lower in some age groups than others. We know which age groups are most likely to die from C-19. We know how many ED visits there are for ILI or COVID sx. We know, by age cohort, how many COVID and COVID like sx result in hospitalizations.

I've dealt with these and shown how these metrics are not increasing or accelerating at the same rate as new cases. If there are increases they are local, for the most part being managed and should not be extrapolated to the national level. There is plenty of good news out there with vaccine developments, with new medications and with improved in-patient management. ....... yet the torrent of bad news drowns the good news out. The "dire consequences" narrative and hand-wringing continues. It's absurd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, JeffB said:

I tend not to deal in "could." It is could happen but then doesn't that is inappropriately contributing to policy making errors when it comes to COVID responses. My take is we've seen a lot of that coming from the CDC.

I will deal in facts.

It is a fact that there are long-term Covid-19 symptoms. There are documented cases and the number of reports of this is growing steadily.

It is a fact that the effects of these symptoms include debilitating effects such as neurological impairment (including memory problems, inability to think as clearly as before, etc.), long-term breathing problems, etc. that ultimately make individuals less productive in their jobs, take more sick time, etc.

It is a fact that the CDC's full name is "Center for Disease Control and Prevention".

If the medical staff that comes up with guidelines to present to their leadership are aware of these long-term effects, and are in any way behaving better than a Wall Street Analyst (that is, looking more than 3 months out), I argue that they will see it as their job to prevent this from happening as much as possible. Since it's actually something that's very reasonably preventable through interventions until we have a viable vaccine.

 

This is my view on the matter. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

Aaaah....total misinformation. Let me try to clear what & how all this came about. Here goes:

A) On March 13, 2020, Cruise lines, hit hard by COVID-19 pandemic, announced they would voluntarily halt operations in the U.S. for 30 days.

B) At 3:21PM, same day, an announcement was made by President Trump which read, “At my request, effective midnight tonight, Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and MSC have all agreed to suspend outbound cruises for thirty days. It is a great and important industry – it will be kept that way!Trump has this authority and power under 50 U.S. Code §218-222.

C) Trump’s Pick for CDC Director was Robert Redfield. The CDC is a component of the HHC whom both report to Trump.
D) To protect the health of people living in the United States, Congress passed certain laws giving the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) the authority to prevent the introduction and spread of contagious diseases in the United States. The HHS Secretary delegated this authority to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and operations are carried out by the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ) within CDC. DGMQ works to fulfill this responsibility through its operations at ports of entry, administration of interstate and foreign quarantine regulations, and establishment of requirements for the medical examination of individuals coming to live and work in the United States.

Federal regulations apply to the following if they are coming in to the United States from another country by land, air, or sea:

  • Any person (including U.S. citizens, legal permanent residents, and foreign nationals)
  • Conveyances (airplane, ship, bus, or train)
  • Animals regulated by CDC
  • Articles (bushmeat, hunting trophies, or other animal products made from CDC-regulated animals; some goatskin drums; and other items that might be infectious to people)

E) In sum, the CDC are just enforcing said rules, regulations and laws passed by Congress.  The advisories from the State Department and the CDC were recommended by the White House coronavirus task force headed by V.P. Pence, and the administration stated Trump and Vice President Pence knows about these recommendations advance.

There's alot of political play going on and CDC is not the right person to take full blame. Trump closed the ports back in March. Trump should open it. What is Trump waiting for??

 

 


 

They control and levied the "no sail order".  CDC should recommend; not act as the final determination agency for implementation for an undefined period of time.   In effect creating new rules not authored by Congress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cruisellama said:

They control and levied the "no sail order".  CDC should recommend; not act as the final determination agency for implementation for an undefined period of time.   In effect creating new rules not authored by Congress.

Once again, CDC ENFORCES the rules, regulations and laws of Congress. Just as you do when you work. You follow your employers rules and regulations if you are managment. CDC recommended the No Sail Order. CDC has no authority in closing ports. That decision was made by Trump back in March and continues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, princevaliantus said:

That decision was made by Trump back in March and continues.

Through what process did Trump effect the ban?  Was it an executive order?  Or did he simply state that at some point? 

He says lots of things that are inaccurate, takes credit for many things he played no direct role in.  Where is the actual order that he put into effect with his name on it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, twangster said:

Through what process did Trump effect the ban?  Was it an executive order?  Or did he simply state that at some point? 

He says lots of things that are inaccurate, takes credit for many things he played no direct role in.  Where is the actual order that he put into effect with his name on it?

 

Below is a rundown of what has and who has done/decided what:

A) On March 13, 2020, Cruise lines, hit hard by COVID-19 pandemic, announced they would voluntarily halt operations in the U.S. for 30 days.

B) At 3:21PM, same day, an announcement was made by President Trump which read,  "At my request, effective midnight tonight, Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and MSC have all agreed to suspend outbound cruises for thirty days. It is a great and important industry – it will be kept that way!" Trump has this authority and power under 50 U.S. Code §218-222.

C) Trump’s Pick for CDC Director was Robert Redfield. The CDC is a component of the HHC whom both report to Trump.
D) To protect the health of people living in the United States, Congress passed certain laws giving the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) the authority to prevent the introduction and spread of contagious diseases in the United States. The HHS Secretary delegated this authority to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and operations are carried out by the Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ) within CDC. DGMQ works to fulfill this responsibility through its operations at ports of entry, administration of interstate and foreign quarantine regulations, and establishment of requirements for the medical examination of individuals coming to live and work in the United States.

Federal regulations apply to the following if they are coming in to the United States from another country by land, air, or sea:

  • Any person (including U.S. citizens, legal permanent residents, and foreign nationals)
  • Conveyances (airplane, ship, bus, or train)
  • Animals regulated by CDC
  • Articles (bushmeat, hunting trophies, or other animal products made from CDC-regulated animals; some goatskin drums; and other items that might be infectious to people)

E) In sum, the CDC are just enforcing said rules, regulations and laws passed by Congress.  The advisories from the State Department and the CDC were recommended by the White House coronavirus task force headed by V.P. Pence, and the administration stated Trump and Vice President Pence knows about these recommendations advance.

There's alot of political play going on and CDC is not the right person to take full blame. Trump closed the ports back in March. Trump should open it. What is Trump waiting for??

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, RWDW1204 said:

Is this the right CFR that he used? When I looked this up it talks about fish and wildlife.

Yes and in which it includes BUT NOT LIMITED TO, as the President can close any port, under Federal regulations apply to the following if they are coming in to the United States from another country by land, air, or sea:

  • Any person (including U.S. citizens, legal permanent residents, and foreign nationals)
  • Conveyances (airplane, ship, bus, or train)
  • Animals regulated by CDC
  • Articles (bushmeat, hunting trophies, or other animal products made from CDC-regulated animals; some goatskin drums; and other items that might be infectious to people)

    This is what Trump has relied on and Congress could not stop him even if they tried as Congress passed the "overly broad" Federal regulation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/15/2020 at 9:39 AM, princevaliantus said:

Please expand on this as it pertains/applies to "misapplied authority"??

My interpretation of this is just simply that cruiselines have to comply with the Vessel Sanitation Program which is is run by the CDC.  Basically that ends up making CDC be a health and safety regulatory agency for the cruise industry.  Other travel and leisure industries don't fall under the jurisdiction and control of the CDC in this same manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

At my request, effective midnight tonight, Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and MSC have all agreed to suspend outbound cruises for thirty days. It is a great and important industry – it will be kept that way!"

Asking and having people agree doesn't equate to a power or legal authority to put that into effect.  What if the cruise lines had said no?  In fact the cruise lines voluntarily shutdown but not at Trump's request - that's just another Trump spin.  

22 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

Trump has this authority and power under 50 U.S. Code §218-222.

Please correct me if I have referenced the wrong section of codified law, but it appears the laws cited, or those not repealed seem to do with custom duties on imports that are uncollected and closing ports as an outcome of uncollected custom obligations.

Container, tanker and even cruise ships are entering ports, so clearly the ports have not been closed and ships are not being forfeited.  Container ships are entering port.  Tanker ships are entering port.  Cruise ships are entering port for the purpose of provisions and crew mail.

If I have referenced the correct articles of law, they don't seem to apply to passenger vessels and banning them from operating.  Is Trump suggesting these vessels failed to pay custom duties?

 

§218 - Repealed Section, R.S. § 5314; act Mar. 2, 1929, ch. 510, § 1, 45 Stat. 1496, related to authority of President in collection of duties to change ports of entry in case of insurrection.  Repealed. Pub. L. 89–554, § 8(a), Sept. 6, 1966, 80 Stat. 632.

§219 - Whenever, at any port of entry, the duties on imports cannot, in the judgment of the President, be collected in the ordinary way, or by the course provided in section 218[1] of this title, by reason of the cause mentioned in said section, he may direct that the customhouse for the district be established in any secure place within the district, either on land or on board any vessel in the district, or at sea near the coast; and in such case the collector shall reside at such place, or on shipboard, as the case may be, and there detain all vessels and cargoes arriving within or approaching the district, until the duties imposed by law on such vessels and their cargoes are paid in cash. But if the owner or consignee of the cargo on board any vessel thus detained, or the master of the vessel, desires to enter a port of entry in any other district where no such obstructions to the execution of the laws exist, the master may be permitted so to change the destination of the vessel and cargo in his manifest; whereupon the collector shall deliver him a written permit to proceed to the port so designated. And the Secretary of the Treasury, with the approval of the President, shall make proper regulations for the enforcement on shipboard of such provisions of the laws regulating the assessment and collection of duties as in his judgment may be necessary and practicable.

§220 - It shall be unlawful to take any vessel or cargo detained under section 219 of this title from the custody of the proper officers of the customs, unless by process of some court of the United States; and in case of any attempt otherwise to take such vessel or cargo by any force, or combination, or assemblage of persons, too great to be overcome by the officers of the customs, the President, or such person as he shall have empowered for that purpose, may employ such part of the Army or Navy or militia of the United States, or such force of citizen volunteers as may be necessary, to prevent the removal of such vessel or cargo, and to protect the officers of the customs in retaining the custody thereof.

§221 - Whenever, in any collection district, the duties on imports can not, in the judgment of the President, be collected in the ordinary way, nor in the manner provided by sections 218[1] to 220 of this title, by reason of the cause mentioned in section 218 of this title, the President may close the port of entry in that district; and shall in such case give notice thereof by proclamation. And thereupon all right of importation, warehousing, and other privileges incident to ports of entry shall cease and be discontinued at such port so closed until it is opened by the order of the President on the cessation of such obstructions. Every vessel from beyond the United States, or having on board any merchandise liable to duty, which attempts to enter any port which has been closed under this section, shall, with her tackle, apparel, furniture, and cargo, be forfeited.

§222 - transferred to section 540 of Title 19, Customs Duties.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great work Twangster .......... trying to make legal sense out of Maritime Law - a very specialized area of the law -  or the NSO and what authority it is based on is difficult. There's been a couple of reasonable posts answering the question what is the NSO, who directed it, through what process will it expire or be extended and who makes that decision.

Well, despite all the complexities interjected into this thread, a lot of it unnecessarily complicating answers to the pertinent questions, the bottom line is that the Executive directed the NSO. How did that come about? The president had traditionally and in the recent past delegated to HHS certain authorities consistent with their expertise within the CDC (a sub-agency within HHS) to prevent the spread of disease in the US. 42  U.S.C. Section 264 is the derivative legal authority for the NSO. Simple as that. 

HHS is by it's charter a regulatory agency. Here's what they do: Ihttps://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/71.1

HHS enforces it's regulations pertinent to the NSO through requirements of the ship's master to follow certain port entry requirements Failure to follow makes the ship's owners subject to fines. As to HHS responsibility to enforce, princevailantus provided this:

Quote

 

The Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (DGMQ) within CDC. DGMQ works to fulfill this responsibility through its operations at ports of entry, administration of interstate and foreign quarantine regulations, and establishment of requirements for the medical examination of individuals coming to live and work in the United States.


 

The last question is who makes the decision to lift or extend the NSO? Well, under it's delegated authority that would be the CDC. They have stipulated and this has been discussed here, how and when the NSO will expire ..... right now that is October 31st. The executive, in this case in the person of VP Pence, can exercise his authority to intervene to limit what the CDC can do, to wit, to extend the NSO beyond 10/31. IMO, this isn't a matter of political influence as members of Congress have alleged.

I think the CDC's position will be to extend the NSO. Best case: I think Pence will intervene and direct it's expiration on 10/31. Alternative case: the NSO gets extended through November 11/30 but only applies to revenue producing cruise ship operations with passengers. That allows cruise lines to prepare ships, assemble crews, conduct training and operate trial runs with employees acting as passengers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So what about politics and the NSO? They're in play. They're in play globally, in Europe, the UK and Asia. They involve the same arguments on both sides in most western democracies. They involve questions of government over-reach juxtaposed to the responsibility of governments to protect the public health/prevent disease spread. What's appropriate to carry out that objective and what's not. What makes sense and what doesn't. What are the costs v. the supposed public health benefits.

It breaks down, in it's simplest and too often mischaracterized way, as a liberal v. conservative battle. It's way more nuanced than that, but you get the point. The encouraging thing to me in this debate is that the social and economic costs of various mitigation measures are being brought into the calculus in deciding whether to implement a particular measure. You may not have access to this article from the Economist  but worth a read if you can figure out how to do it.  

The article discusses what the UK is facing as new COVID case numbers climb. Lock the kingdom down again to gain control of the virus or recognize there are alternative responses that avoid the social and economic costs of lock-downs. There are distinct parallels to the situation in the US. Similar COVID issues, similar politics: 

(A lockdown) would also be economically ruinous. In April, at the height of the first lockdown, Britain’s output was one-quarter lower than it had been in February. The imf argues that lockdowns may be worth it if they create an economy that can fully reopen for business. But nobody is suggesting that a short circuit-breaker could suppress the virus to that extent. And the trade-off would be even less worthwhile if you factor in the toll on mental health, the delay in treating other illnesses and the effects on long-term employment and education.

To get covid-19 under control Britain should focus on sustainable local measures: identifying vulnerable groups, finding ways to protect them, identifying trade-offs, instigating local testing and recruiting leaders to generate local support. A circuit-breaker sounds like a scientific solution to a runaway problem. The reality would be a costly mess. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, twangster said:

Asking and having people agree doesn't equate to a power or legal authority to put that into effect.  What if the cruise lines had said no?  In fact the cruise lines voluntarily shutdown but not at Trump's request - that's just another Trump spin.  

Please correct me if I have referenced the wrong section of codified law, but it appears the laws cited, or those not repealed seem to do with custom duties on imports that are uncollected and closing ports as an outcome of uncollected custom obligations.

Container, tanker and even cruise ships are entering ports, so clearly the ports have not been closed and ships are not being forfeited.  Container ships are entering port.  Tanker ships are entering port.  Cruise ships are entering port for the purpose of provisions and crew mail.

If I have referenced the correct articles of law, they don't seem to apply to passenger vessels and banning them from operating.  Is Trump suggesting these vessels failed to pay custom duties?

 

§218 - Repealed Section, R.S. § 5314; act Mar. 2, 1929, ch. 510, § 1, 45 Stat. 1496, related to authority of President in collection of duties to change ports of entry in case of insurrection.  Repealed. Pub. L. 89–554, § 8(a), Sept. 6, 1966, 80 Stat. 632.

§219 - Whenever, at any port of entry, the duties on imports cannot, in the judgment of the President, be collected in the ordinary way, or by the course provided in section 218[1] of this title, by reason of the cause mentioned in said section, he may direct that the customhouse for the district be established in any secure place within the district, either on land or on board any vessel in the district, or at sea near the coast; and in such case the collector shall reside at such place, or on shipboard, as the case may be, and there detain all vessels and cargoes arriving within or approaching the district, until the duties imposed by law on such vessels and their cargoes are paid in cash. But if the owner or consignee of the cargo on board any vessel thus detained, or the master of the vessel, desires to enter a port of entry in any other district where no such obstructions to the execution of the laws exist, the master may be permitted so to change the destination of the vessel and cargo in his manifest; whereupon the collector shall deliver him a written permit to proceed to the port so designated. And the Secretary of the Treasury, with the approval of the President, shall make proper regulations for the enforcement on shipboard of such provisions of the laws regulating the assessment and collection of duties as in his judgment may be necessary and practicable.

§220 - It shall be unlawful to take any vessel or cargo detained under section 219 of this title from the custody of the proper officers of the customs, unless by process of some court of the United States; and in case of any attempt otherwise to take such vessel or cargo by any force, or combination, or assemblage of persons, too great to be overcome by the officers of the customs, the President, or such person as he shall have empowered for that purpose, may employ such part of the Army or Navy or militia of the United States, or such force of citizen volunteers as may be necessary, to prevent the removal of such vessel or cargo, and to protect the officers of the customs in retaining the custody thereof.

§221 - Whenever, in any collection district, the duties on imports can not, in the judgment of the President, be collected in the ordinary way, nor in the manner provided by sections 218[1] to 220 of this title, by reason of the cause mentioned in section 218 of this title, the President may close the port of entry in that district; and shall in such case give notice thereof by proclamation. And thereupon all right of importation, warehousing, and other privileges incident to ports of entry shall cease and be discontinued at such port so closed until it is opened by the order of the President on the cessation of such obstructions. Every vessel from beyond the United States, or having on board any merchandise liable to duty, which attempts to enter any port which has been closed under this section, shall, with her tackle, apparel, furniture, and cargo, be forfeited.

§222 - transferred to section 540 of Title 19, Customs Duties.

 

 

Yes... §221, as Trump's administration applied the law/regulation. I'll give you the most easiest example that most people/Cruisers don't know.  Passenger vessels, such as cruise lines, also carry cargo.  By carrying cargo, Federal §221 applies/can be implied and inferred here. That's how circumnenting such rules and regulation can be implimented.  Cruise Lines don't only carry passengers. A little inight into the political realm of twisting rules, laws and regulations to fit ones needs.  In other words, you are bringing me merchandise (imports) to my mall to sell but I know you have the cooties (Corona Virus). I will not let you enter my mall and risk spreading what you have to other's in the mall (no collection of duties). Bazinga !! Instant  ban by virtue of a Federal Directive (Trump).

Inasmuch, the State has no jurisdiction to determine whether or not to close ports. DOT, at the order of a federal directive, as by President Trump, would be required for a complete ban and/or closing harbors to cruise ships.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, princevaliantus said:

Yes... §221, as Trump's administration applied the law/regulation. I'll give you the most easiest example that most people/Cruisers don't know.  Passenger vessels, such as cruise lines, also carry cargo.  By carrying cargo, Federal §221 applies/can be implied and inferred here. That's how circumnenting such rules and regulation can be implimented.  Cruise Lines don't only carry passengers. A little inight into the political realm of twisting rules, laws and regulations to fit ones needs.  In other words, you are bringing me merchandise (imports) to my mall to sell but I know you have the cooties (Corona Virus). I will not let you enter my mall and risk spreading what you have to other's in the mall (no collection of duties). Bazinga !! Instant  ban by virtue of a Federal Directive (Trump).

Inasmuch, the State has no jurisdiction to determine whether or not to close ports. DOT, at the order of a federal directive, as by President Trump, would be required for a complete ban and/or closing harbors to cruise ships.

He didn't invoke §221 AND he did not close the ports.    It's just another example of Trump claiming he did something which he didn't.  

If he did close the port under §221 every container ship would be screwed.

  • Every vessel from beyond the United States, or having on board any merchandise liable to duty, which attempts to enter any port which has been closed under this section, shall, with her tackle, apparel, furniture, and cargo, be forfeited.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, twangster said:

He didn't invoke §221 AND he did not close the ports.    It's just another example of Trump claiming he did something which he didn't.  

If he did close the port under §221 every container ship would be screwed.

  • Every vessel from beyond the United States, or having on board any merchandise liable to duty, which attempts to enter any port which has been closed under this section, shall, with her tackle, apparel, furniture, and cargo, be forfeited.

Never said Trump did use this Federal Code. What I said, "Trump has this authority and power under 50 U.S. Code §218-222". Interpretation should be objective, not subjective.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...