Cruise lines treated unfairly by CDC

[Jill]

https://www.wesh.com/article/cruise-lines-cdc-aug-1/32759073

[Ogilthorpe]

Thank you for posting that ... but I cannot resist: (directed toward the media )

/startsarcasm insightful, what will that reporter expose next ... breaking news: sky is blue, non frozen water is wet ... film at 11 /endsarcasm  

[Ogilthorpe]

20 minutes ago, bytheslice said:

Never did I think potus would use government agencies to harm the hard working members of the cruise lines. 

I agree with you. Early on in this debacle, the cruise lines were mentioned early and often for consideration. Those frequent acknowledgements have fallen off. There are a lot of forces at work, but I remain optimistic that logic and reason will prevail.

[Ampurp85]

Unfortunately cruise lines are the Raccoon City of Covid-19. The fact that you had nowhere to go, if you caught it just looked bad. It was all optics and spinning. Add into the fact that cruising isn't essential and is not "American," if one of the cruise lines was all-American, you can bet the outcome would be different. Airlines aide in transport and business, cruises provide nothing but pure leisure as a good chink of the workforce is foreign born. Cruise lines are considered international business, regardless of the port taxes and fees they pay....so the US government couldn't care less whether they survive.

[FionaMG]

Any chance someone could copy/paste the content, please ? The article is "not available" in my region. Thanks.

[Ian T]

15 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

Any chance someone could copy/paste the content, please ? The article is "not available" in my region. Thanks.

Nor mine.

[Ampurp85]

Port Canaveral’s chief executive says the cruise industry is not getting fair treatment from the Centers for Disease Control. Industry leaders say that’s making the pain even worse for one of Central Florida’s biggest economic players.

Cruise ships remain dead in the water, offshore or in Port Canaveral. There’s some hope that some cruises will start again around Aug. 1.

Advertisement

"The CDC has not acted on any plan for the cruise lines to return. In fact, just the opposite. The CDC still has their no-sail order in effect until July 24," Capt. John Murray, Port Canaveral's chief executive officer said.

At a recent meeting of the Canaveral Port Authority, Murray said cruise lines are getting blame they don’t deserve.

"They’ve really taken an unfair hit with the coronavirus outbreak. It’s almost as if they’ve been earmarked as the folks that brought it to the United States. That’s far from the truth," Murray said.

As a result, the port’s revenue is down $7.5 million a month and the cruise industry’s billion-dollar economic impact on Central Florida is down to zero. Carnival Cruise Line has selected Port Canaveral as one of just three ports it will use when it begins to operate around Aug. 1.

Disney Cruise Line hopes for a limited startup at about the same time. Murray says he sees a lot of pent-up demand from people who are still willing to take a cruise but they can’t do it without federal approval.

Cruises, when they restart, will start slowly, with ships that will not be full. Industry leaders say it’ll take quite awhile to rebuild trust before a majority of the public sees cruising as a safe thing to do.

 

Sponsored Content

[Jill]

Here’s an interesting article from this morning’s NYT’s. There’s mention of the no sail order. 

“The CDC waited “it’s entire existence for this moment.” What went wrong?”

https://apple.news/As8vZhsY8QW2yJrWdwW49cQ

[Ogilthorpe]

1 hour ago, Jill said:

“The CDC waited “it’s entire existence for this moment.” What went wrong?”

 

I believe the CDC, like many Government and non-government organizations are good at the status quo. Every year they remind us to get a flu shot, keep some statistics and media reminds us of their expertise. When events escalated the CDC and those other organizations had their incompetence exposed at a leadership level.

[Mike Stephens]

...wonder why the CDC didn't cancel the SpaceX manned mission, the Astronauts clearly were not conducting social distancing...  >.>

If we don't sail August 23rd, every person I can vote for currently in office, I'm voting OUT

[Neesa]

I agree with @Ogilthorpe seriously reading my mind. To add to it I feel like the CDC is "enjoying" their "celebrity" right now.....and they want to continue to feel relevant, so go after the cruise industry. They stay relevant and they "ONLY" really hurt this industry/people. It's easy because of the "not US flagged" situation. 

I just returned from a drive over at Clearwater Beach Florida. The place was packed, license plates from everywhere that is still locked down, no CDC comments there, it was a sea of people enjoying themselves. 

Enough CDC we get it you're the schoolyard bully and only have us to pick on, everyone else told you to pound salt, time to lift the no sail order, the cruise lines will " police" themselves, get out of their way! RANT OVER....

Be safe, stay healthy....wash your hands, let's get some direction and sail. 

[Matt]

The issue I have is the exact arguments about cruise ships and concern over the spread of coronavirus can be applied exactly to the theme parks, which evidently have no oversight into their re-opening/operations.

[twangster]

The CDC has no real authority over states.  They can issue "guidelines" and "recommendations" which they did and which were promptly ignored by all states in the motion to reopen.  

However the CDC DOES have authority over cruise ships.  Theme parks and similar have to deal with local or state government agencies which often are small departments that are understaffed and underfunded.  Theme parks are not directly regulated or controlled by the CDC.

So it seems with states largely ignoring the CDC they went overboard creating policy for the one thing they can sink they teeth into - cruise ships.  

 

[Andrew72681]

23 minutes ago, twangster said:

The CDC has no real authority over states.  They can issue "guidelines" and "recommendations" which they did and which were promptly ignored by all states in the motion to reopen.  

However the CDC DOES have authority over cruise ships.  Theme parks and similar have to deal with local or state government agencies which often are small departments that are understaffed and underfunded.  Theme parks are not directly regulated or controlled by the CDC.

So it seems with states largely ignoring the CDC they went overboard creating policy for the one thing they can sink they teeth into - cruise ships.  

 

I’ve got an idea. Let’s get a Delorean and we can go back to the 1970s and convince the CDC that the cruise ship industry will never be big enough for them to care about. While we’re there we’ll definitely have to get some apple stock. 

[Baked Alaska]

34 minutes ago, twangster said:

The CDC has no real authority over states.  They can issue "guidelines" and "recommendations" which they did and which were promptly ignored by all states in the motion to reopen.  

However the CDC DOES have authority over cruise ships.  Theme parks and similar have to deal with local or state government agencies which often are small departments that are understaffed and underfunded.  Theme parks are not directly regulated or controlled by the CDC.

So it seems with states largely ignoring the CDC they went overboard creating policy for the one thing they can sink they teeth into - cruise ships.  

 

When I was an epidemiologist for the state of Kansas, the CDC gave us guidance in the lab, contact tracing (via Disease Intervention Specialists), and other assistance, but teeth were not one of them. When I became a Bi-County Health Department Administrator and County Health Officer, I had more teeth, as long as my Board of Health and County Administrators were willing to put their necks out. So, if you've got a political agenda guiding your Boards, you, as a Health Officer, will probably not get things done that need to be done, e.g., TB & HIV control for starters, Child Care facility licensing, restaurant inspections, even rabies control. It is VERY political, especially at the local level, be it Orange County, Florida, Miami-Dade County Florida, or BFE, Kansas.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Baked Alaska
Grammar police.

[Mrs. Thomas]

4 hours ago, Neesa said:

I agree with @Ogilthorpe seriously reading my mind. To add to it I feel like the CDC is "enjoying" their "celebrity" right now.....and they want to continue to feel relevant, so go after the cruise industry. They stay relevant and they "ONLY" really hurt this industry/people. It's easy because of the "not US flagged" situation. 

I just returned from a drive over at Clearwater Beach Florida. The place was packed, license plates from everywhere that is still locked down, no CDC comments there, it was a sea of people enjoying themselves. 

Enough CDC we get it you're the schoolyard bully and only have us to pick on, everyone else told you to pound salt, time to lift the no sail order, the cruise lines will " police" themselves, get out of their way! RANT OVER....

Be safe, stay healthy....wash your hands, let's get some direction and sail. 

I agree. They are the nerd in class that just got more power and they are now going to flex their muscles awhile. I wonder if the cruise lines could sail out of other places not controlled by the CDC and just never touch US soil that is regulated by the CDC. All of the ships are based in places like the Bahamas. Could it be a loophole? I would gladly take a flight in order to cruise.

[marti314]

48 minutes ago, Mrs. Thomas said:

I agree. They are the nerd in class that just got more power and they are now going to flex their muscles awhile. I wonder if the cruise lines could sail out of other places not controlled by the CDC and just never touch US soil that is regulated by the CDC. All of the ships are based in places like the Bahamas. Could it be a loophole? I would gladly take a flight in order to cruise.

We know Nassau can handle 6  or more ships a day but their airport could never handle 24000+ people per day.  Same with somewhere like Cozumel, they have been known to have 8 ships in port in Cozumel which could equate to 30,000 people coming in to board ships.  Cozumel in 2019 handled 546,423 passengers at its airport.  I couldnt see them doing that many people every 20 days.  

I love how you can go stand in line at TSA (no sanitation requirements no checks) wait for your plane, board a plane that could have close to 2000 people a day fly on it and no CDC guidelines need to be in place for this.  

[twangster]

58 minutes ago, Mrs. Thomas said:

I wonder if the cruise lines could sail out of other places not controlled by the CDC and just never touch US soil that is regulated by the CDC. All of the ships are based in places like the Bahamas. Could it be a loophole?

Resupply would be an issue.  All the food and in some cases drinking water, plus the other supplies we don't think of.  

Few Caribbean nations can supply everything needed to restock a ship so it would all have to be ordered and shipped from the US then warehoused in cold storage.  That would add significant cost and some question of integrity of food.  

I trust U.S. suppliers.  Once its in the hands of another country even if briefly I can see lots of potential for spoilage and other issues.  For older ships that take on drinking water, that's another issue.  They might get around the CDC but at what cost?

[sk8erguy1978]

1 hour ago, Andrew72681 said:

I’ve got an idea. Let’s get a Delorean and we can go back to the 1970s and convince the CDC that the cruise ship industry will never be big enough for them to care about. While we’re there we’ll definitely have to get some apple stock. 

Doc would be upset you're using the time machine for financial gain :). 

[Ogilthorpe]

14 minutes ago, bytheslice said:

Great post, right on target. Incompetence at the highest leadership level, this is what happens with 3 years of no adult leadership

The problem has existed for decades and doesn't stop with the CDC. Include the FDA and the WHO and you have 3 of the most corrupt organizations on the planet ... and that's just in this grouping!  Branch out to virtually any with an acronym... and we could fill a page!

[Ampurp85]

@Ogilthorpe Not to mention most unions and charitable organizations. Truthfully anything used as oversight is often far reaching when they can be.

While I agree the CDC is trying to prove they are gown, they too won't fare well if the cruise lines get any bad press. They shot themselves in the foot by requiring a protocol.

[Andrew72681]

6 hours ago, Baked Alaska said:

n rabies control. It is VERY political, especially at the local level, be it Orange County, Florida, Miami-Dade County Florida, or BFE, Kansas.

I thought that was rabies I caught on that Carnival cruise once

[Baked Alaska]

1 hour ago, Andrew72681 said:

I thought that was rabies I caught on that Carnival cruise once

Syphilis, that was syphilis. Sorry, couldn't resist. . . being Carnival and all. . .  the FUN ship!

[Andrew72681]

Just now, Baked Alaska said:

Syphilis, that was syphilis.

Oh man, just wait until the Virgin Voyages party cruises start up. 

[Baked Alaska]

1 minute ago, Andrew72681 said:

Oh man, just wait until the Virgin Voyages party cruises start up. 

LOVE IT!! B52s Love Shack blaring all. The. Time.

[Baked Alaska]

@Andrew72681 just to be clear, I'm no longer in Public Health. That was another life. Now I own my own business and substitute teach middle and junior high math, music, and science. Rather be my own boss than having twelve (County Commissioners who knew absolutely nothing about Public Health even was), each with their on agenda. 

[Andrew72681]

7 minutes ago, Baked Alaska said:

@Andrew72681 just to be clear, I'm no longer in Public Health. That was another life. Now I own my own business and substitute teach middle and junior high math, music, and science. Rather be my own boss than having twelve (County Commissioners who knew absolutely nothing about Public Health even was), each with their on agenda. 

You still have more credentials than I’ll ever have in public health. The closest I get is setting the huge contracts my wife handles for her company (they just got 40 million in COVID vaccine contracts)

Now if you ever need an expert in puffed snacks I’m your guy. 

[Ampurp85]

To jump in....Carnival gives me whatever cause you to become violently ill after seeing circus decor.

[JLMoran]

14 hours ago, Ampurp85 said:

To jump in....Carnival gives me whatever cause you to become violently ill after seeing circus decor.

So I guess you go out of your way to avoid Circus Circus in Vegas. Can't imagine getting a "drive by" case of that, the car would take WEEKS to get clean!

[Andrew72681]

10 minutes ago, JLMoran said:

So I guess you go out of your way to avoid Circus Circus in Vegas. Can't imagine getting a "drive by" case of that, the car would take WEEKS to get clean!

We described our first carnival cruise as what would happen if Barney the Purple Dinosaur decide to open up a gentlemen’s club. 

[Ampurp85]

@JLMoran  I actually went there once...for like an hour and, *shakes head* not for me. I get Circus, Circus and have attended circuses......but Carnival is just ugly decor wise. Like just staring at the fixtures, artwork and color schemes for days made me nauseous. I also saw people do a LOT of questionable things. It was the whole vibe.

[sk8erguy1978]

1 hour ago, JLMoran said:

So I guess you go out of your way to avoid Circus Circus in Vegas. Can't imagine getting a "drive by" case of that, the car would take WEEKS to get clean!

 

12 minutes ago, Ampurp85 said:

@JLMoran  I actually went there once...for like an hour and, *shakes head* not for me. I get Circus, Circus and have attended circuses......but Carnival is just ugly decor wise. Like just staring at the fixtures, artwork and color schemes for days made me nauseous. I also saw people do a LOT of questionable things. It was the whole vibe.

I've been to Circus, Circus twice. Once to check out the rides, that was in 2005. The second time was in 2018 for my friends bachelor party. We walked from from the Gold & Silver Pawn shop to the Stratosphere, in July because we hate ourselves. The plan was to check out the rides - well they were closed - bummer. So, we cooled off, and with time before having to clean up for night time non-sense, we decided to keep walking. Finally called it quits around Circus-Circus and to grab an Uber. Well, we decided to cool off again first and play a few slots. I got on the carousel of slot machines. When I got off, I was completely disoriented, had no idea where I was since I didn't know the layout and the casino floor is blah, I thought, this is how I die - trapped in the horrible casino! I'm good with that place! LOL

[Ampurp85]

@sk8erguy1978 I don't walk anywhere in Vegas not covered in air conditioning.

I see the demand to gamble is crazy, but even the casinos are betting things won't be like pre-COVID until possible 2023. They attract more people, than a cruise would have, in mere hours. I suspect the CDC will probably issue a new statement in a few weeks in regards to the situation.

[cruisellama]

On 6/4/2020 at 12:33 PM, twangster said:

The CDC has no real authority over states.  They can issue "guidelines" and "recommendations" which they did and which were promptly ignored by all states in the motion to reopen.  

However the CDC DOES have authority over cruise ships.  Theme parks and similar have to deal with local or state government agencies which often are small departments that are understaffed and underfunded.  Theme parks are not directly regulated or controlled by the CDC.

So it seems with states largely ignoring the CDC they went overboard creating policy for the one thing they can sink they teeth into - cruise ships.  

 

Guessing the CDC oversight is because cruise ships deal with international clientele , itineraries across boarders,  etc.  Theme parks are located in a single state and subject to the home state rules and regulations for food and health safety.  A cruise ship touches more than the port it calls home, but every port it touches and anyone who comes in contact with the ship's compliment.

 

[twangster]

3 hours ago, cruisellama said:

Guessing the CDC oversight is because cruise ships deal with international clientele , itineraries across boarders,  etc.  Theme parks are located in a single state and subject to the home state rules and regulations for food and health safety.  A cruise ship touches more than the port it calls home, but every port it touches and anyone who comes in contact with the ship's compliment.

 

I think some of it has to do with shipping in general beyond cruise ships.  The number of cruises ships entering US ports is minuscule compared to the number of ships overall (cargo, tanker, container, etc).  Most of the shipping industry falls under federal jurisdiction so cruise ships neatly get slid into that by association.  

Couple that with local health departments having so few resources it would be challenging for say the city of Galveston to inspect health related items on ships entering port.  Have you seen how many tanker ships use Texas ports?    A lot of city or state governments struggle to keep up with local business.  If they had to manage cruise ships the inspections would be few and far between and they would struggle adapting to how things must be done on ships versus on land. 

Cruise ships would have a variety of rules and implementations if local governments at each home port were in control.  In Miami they look for X, in Ft Lauderdale the inspectors look for Y and in Canaveral they look for Z.  That would be a nightmare for ships.  The sign that employees must wash hands is 2" too high in one port and 2" too far to the right in another - Imagine that times 1,000.  

Historically the cruise industry (or some players in it) didn't really adhere to any code so the industry brought the CDC on themselves (or equivalent agency in other regions).  

Put it all together along with other stuff we never think of and you've got the current situation.