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J_Keeble

Oasis New York back to to Fort Lauderdale - 2020

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Im have been looking and this may have already been discussed but the last Oasis of the Seas sailing out of New York is 25th October 2020 so that returns 1st November to New York.

Oasis then has a 7 night Caribbean from Fort Laurderdale on the 8th November, I'm wondering why there is no repositioning cruise from new York to Florida?

 

Did I see  someone say that you cant just do America to America? Although surely they would visit some ports like CocoCay?

 

EDIT : I had a duration filter on and there is in fact a 4 day leaving November from Fort Lauderdale

 

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2 hours ago, J_Keeble said:

Im have been looking and this may have already been discussed but the last Oasis of the Seas sailing out of New York is 25th October 2020 so that returns 1st November to New York.

Oasis then has a 7 night Caribbean from Fort Laurderdale on the 8th November, I'm wondering why there is no repositioning cruise from new York to Florida?

 

Did I see  someone say that you cant just do America to America? Although surely they would visit some ports like CocoCay?

 

EDIT : I had a duration filter on and there is in fact a 4 day leaving November from Fort Lauderdale

 

It's to do with the American law governing foreign-flagged ships not connecting two American ports unless it calls at a distant foreign port somewhere between the two. On such a short trip it's not's possible to call at a distant foreign port so it has to sail empty.

Pinging @twangster who explained this to me a while back when I had precisely the same question. He can explain it better than I have done.

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24 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

It's to do with the American law governing foreign-flagged ships not connecting two American ports unless it calls at a distant foreign port somewhere between the two. On such a short trip it's not's possible to call at a distant foreign port so it has to sail empty.

Pinging @twangster who explained this to me a while back when I had precisely the same question. He can explain it better than I have done.

It the Jones Act. That stops ships from only having salings in US ports

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Actually it's the PVSA, Passenger Vessel Services Act.

The PVSA introduces the concept of near foreign port versus distant foreign port and closed loop versus open jaw routes.

A closed loop sailing has to visit at least one foreign port.  Closed loop means it starts and ends in the same US port.  A closed loop itinerary could include a near or distant foreign port so long as there is a foreign port on the itinerary.  When Oasis begins operating from Bayonne she will perform closed loop itineraries. 

For open loop sailings such as repositioning cruise between US ports the itinerary must visit a distant foreign port.  Panama is designated as distant which is how Panama Canal cruises are legal.  The ABC islands are designated as distant ports.  For a cruise such as Boston to Florida to be legal it includes all or some of the ABC islands.  Sometimes you'll catch a Radiance or Voyager class ship doing these types of repo cruises.  

San Juan has a waiver in place so repo's can occur.  It's the only US port at the moment with a waiver allowing open loop (repositioning) cruises. 

Alaska North/South cruises start or stop in Canada so they are legal.  Same with Hawaii cruises.  Same with Quebec City to/from Bayonne or Florida.  All are legal because they start or stop in Canada therefore they are not cruises starting and stopping in different US ports.  

For Oasis to carry passengers between Florida and New Jersey she would have to visit the ABC islands.  So far an Oasis class ship has never ventured that far South for whatever reason.  Perhaps those ports can't accomodate Oasis class.  

The result is she has to sail absent of guests to and from Bayonne when she repositions.  Sailing empty for a few days is costing them millions in lost revenue since the ship only makes money when guests are sailing on her.  They must figure it's worth it to place Oasis in Bayonne.

Incidentally, certain positions on the ship are not considered essential to ship operations and they may be subject to the PVSA as well.  This includes NextCruise which is a sales function, not essential to ship operations and sometimes entertainers.   For this reason they can't offer free cruises to guests on this repo since guests are never essential to ship operations.

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

Actually it's the PVSA, Passenger Vessel Services Act.

The PVSA introduces the concept of near foreign port versus distant foreign port and closed loop versus open jaw routes.

A closed loop sailing has to visit at least one foreign port.  Closed loop means it starts and ends in the same US port.  A closed loop itinerary could include a near or distant foreign port so long as there is a foreign port on the itinerary.  When Oasis begins operating from Bayonne she will perform closed loop itineraries. 

For open loop sailings such as repositioning cruise between US ports the itinerary must visit a distant foreign port.  Panama is designated as distant which is how Panama Canal cruises are legal.  The ABC islands are designated as distant ports.  For a cruise such as Boston to Florida to be legal it includes all or some of the ABC islands.  Sometimes you'll catch a Radiance or Voyager class ship doing these types of repo cruises.  

San Juan has a waiver in place so repo's can occur.  It's the only US port at the moment with a waiver allowing open loop (repositioning) cruises. 

Alaska North/South cruises start or stop in Canada so they are legal.  Same with Hawaii cruises.  Same with Quebec City to/from Bayonne or Florida.  All are legal because they start or stop in Canada therefore they are not cruises starting and stopping in different US ports.  

For Oasis to carry passengers between Florida and New Jersey she would have to visit the ABC islands.  So far an Oasis class ship has never ventured that far South for whatever reason.  Perhaps those ports can't accomodate Oasis class.  

The result is she has to sail absent of guests to and from Bayonne when she repositions.  Sailing empty for a few days is costing them millions in lost revenue since the ship only makes money when guests are sailing on her.  They must figure it's worth it to place Oasis in Bayonne.

Incidentally, certain positions on the ship are not considered essential to ship operations and they may be subject to the PVSA as well.  This includes NextCruise which is a sales function, not essential to ship operations and sometimes entertainers.   For this reason they can't offer free cruises to guests on this repo since guests are never essential to ship operations.

Very interesting..... it made me think of last year when Adventure repositioned from San Juan to Bayonne ..... even though there is a waiver for SJ --- it still stopped by St. Maarten on the way.

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1 minute ago, coneyraven said:

Very interesting..... it made me think of last year when Adventure repositioned from San Juan to Bayonne ..... even though there is a waiver for SJ --- it still stopped by St. Maarten on the way.

Yep.  The waiver removes the need for a distant foreign port, but all cruises still require some kind of foreign port.  Otherwise they would have needed to swing by the ABC's to repo the ship to Bayonne.  

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26 minutes ago, twangster said:

Otherwise they would have needed to swing by the ABC's to repo the ship to Bayonne.  

So are the ABCs the closest distant ports that would validate a repo not covered by the SJ waiver?

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20 minutes ago, FionaMG said:

So are the ABCs the closest distant ports that would validate a repo not covered by the SJ waiver?

That I know of.  

If you look at East coast repos they tend to involve the ABCs or they sail empty.

When Mariner, Harmony and Allure recently moved home ports within Florida they sailed empty.  

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Here are three example for Adventure, Brilliance and Serenade coming from North East ports repositioning to other US ports.  All include some of the ABC islands.

912213372_USRepos.jpeg.d282315c4159be7925b76b2f9c8507be.jpeg

By the way, sometimes these repo cruises are good deals as seen above.  11 nights for $620.  Need points to raise the family up the C&A ladder?  Cruise solo.  With double solo points that would be 22 points for $1,240 (with solo supplement)  plus ports fees and taxes.  Nice bump of 22 points to level up you and your significant other.  

 

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Came across this reference:

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/partial-cruise-request

Restrictions: Certain countries, such as the U.S., Italy and Norway, have cabotage laws affecting passenger movements. These laws restrict foreign flag passenger vessels (such as those operated by Royal Caribbean) from transporting guests from one port to another port in the same country. In the U.S., the cabotage law applicable to the cruise industry is commonly called the Jones Act but is legally titled the Passengers Services Act. A brief summary of this U.S. law follows: 

If a passenger (as listed on a vessel passenger manifest) embarks in a U.S. port and the vessel calls in a nearby foreign port (such as Ensenada, Grand Cayman and Nassau) and then returns to the U.S., the person must disembark in the same U.S. port. A passenger who embarks and disembarks in two different U.S. ports (such as Los Angeles and San Diego) would result in the carrier (not the violator) being fined. The vessel must call in a distant foreign port before the U.S. embarkation and disembarkation ports can differ. The nearest distant foreign ports are in or off the coast of South America. If either the passenger's embarkation port or disembarkation port is in a foreign country, then the provisions of this cabotage law do not apply. Nor do they apply in Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

Similar passenger movement restrictions exist for cruise vessels calling in Italy and Norway.
 

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We've done a two repo cruises so far, and have another coming up in October.

First was Song of America - she was doing a huge reposition and we took the San Juan to NYC part, with one multi-day stop in Bermuda.  (This was before the Cape Liberty port existed.)

Second was Boston to Ft. Lauderdale, and we went all the way down to A & C for that, with stops in St. Martin, Antigua & Barbados.

This next one is taking the Summit from New Jersey to San Juan, with stops in St. Martin & St. Thomas. 

So the Song of America only stopped in Bermuda.  But this was in 1997...sooooo, before the PVSA?

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12 hours ago, KathyC said:

First was Song of America - she was doing a huge reposition and we took the San Juan to NYC part, with one multi-day stop in Bermuda.  (This was before the Cape Liberty port existed.)

...

So the Song of America only stopped in Bermuda.  But this was in 1997...sooooo, before the PVSA?

Puerto Rico (San Juan) has a waiver so it doesn't need a distant foreign port.  Bermuda counts as a foreign port and since the cruise departed from Puerto Rico it doesn't matter that Bermuda is not a distant foreign port.

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28 minutes ago, twangster said:

Puerto Rico (San Juan) has a waiver so it doesn't need a distant foreign port.  Bermuda counts as a foreign port and since the cruise departed from Puerto Rico it doesn't matter that Bermuda is not a distant foreign port.

Totally get that now.  I'm usually smart enough to figure those things out.  My job is killing what little brain cells I have left in my old age.  Sigh.  Oh well...back to it again today.

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