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MattCasey

Freedom of the Seas Fatality?

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I don't know who is right and who is wrong.

If the windows couldn't open, it wouldn't have happened. If grandpa hadn't put the little girl on the railing, it wouldn't have happened. 

I one thing I do know is that no amount of money will bring that little girl back or fill the endless whole in the hearts of that family.

There are no winners in this. Not RC. Not the family. No one.

It was 10yrs ago yesterday that friends of ours lost their 18m old daughter, who died in her sleep. Not a day has gone by in all that time that they don't think about her and the what ifs. 

They, like this family will have to deal with what happened forever, what ever the outcome of this litigation. Again I say, In cases like this. There are no winners, only losers.

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On 7/15/2019 at 5:26 PM, Brobbins246 said:

OK, I know I made the most recent posting on this thread, and I certainly wasn't thinking about the family when I wrote it last night.  I don't regret anything snarky I say about the attorney, but I just got a huge reminder about what this family is going through.  The family is from a town literally 10 minutes south of where I live (I've known that since the event happened), but I just read the obituary.  The memorial service took place this afternoon with visitation until this evening.  Apparently Chloe was a preemie, given her low birth weight and early medical scares, which I can relate to as the mother of 32-week preemie who, thank God, is now a healthy 16-year old.  For her to die the way she did, in such happy circumstances (family vacation) after overcoming problems at birth just takes my breath away. :41_pensive:

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/kpcnews/obituary.aspx?n=chloe-wiegand&pid=193383989&fhid=8595

 

Thank you for posting the link to her obituary. It brings us back to the real issue, which is the family's loss and their sadness. It's heartbreaking.

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On 7/11/2019 at 10:41 AM, OrlandoC said:

Yes. As I posted several times and is mentioned in every article about this story McDonald's served the coffee at 185-190 degrees F. This fact was not in dispute. McDonalds admitted it. 

The McD QA manager also said they knew coffee temperatures above 145F could cause injury and that the coffee was too hot to be consumed by any guest. 

I won't post pictures here but feel free to search for third degree burn pictures and let me know if you think that kind of injury is equivalent to a "pizza burn". 

Worked in multiple Restaurants in 1980's as Manager. We never served coffee at 145 or under. At Burger King we served it at 165, another place worked at it was 157.  As Served At 160°F plus the flavor and aftertaste of the coffee can be judged; at 140°F, the cupper can determine acidity and body, and then move on to balance. Anything over 205 degrees will burn the grounds and leave you with a nasty aftertaste. This is the same reason you want to drink your drip brewed coffee as soon as it's finished brewing - leaving it on the heating element for too long can also burn the coffee. For a French press, you want your water to be somewhere around 195 degrees... A hot bath means different things to different people one man’s “toasty” is someone else’s “scalding.” And so it is with coffee some may like it hot, but there is a wide range of preferences on just how hot “hot” is.

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5 hours ago, ONECRUISER said:

Worked in multiple Restaurants in 1980's as Manager. We never served coffee at 145 or under. At Burger King we served it at 165, another place worked at it was 157.  As Served At 160°F plus the flavor and aftertaste of the coffee can be judged; at 140°F, the cupper can determine acidity and body, and then move on to balance. Anything over 205 degrees will burn the grounds and leave you with a nasty aftertaste. This is the same reason you want to drink your drip brewed coffee as soon as it's finished brewing - leaving it on the heating element for too long can also burn the coffee. For a French press, you want your water to be somewhere around 195 degrees... A hot bath means different things to different people one man’s “toasty” is someone else’s “scalding.” And so it is with coffee some may like it hot, but there is a wide range of preferences on just how hot “hot” is.

at dunkin we make sure our brewers are over 196*F, at Bk it was 185*F, coffee is hot, unless it is cold....

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And I bake a cake at 350 degrees but I don't eat it at that temperature. 

 

The popular belief that the fast food industry, in response to the 1994 McDonalds suit, has reduced the temperature of its hot beverages is wrong, Cox said.

The reason is that there are minimum and maximum temperature ranges necessary to extract the flavor of coffee beans or tea leaves or cocoa, and to deliver to the customer the taste they expect, he said.

All of these "are well above the threshold for burning," he said.

He offers this comparison: The temperature of very hot bathtub water would be 105 degrees. A steaming hot shower would be 120. Brewed coffee is 195 to 205 degrees; the temperature at which it's held by a restaurant is 180; and it typically is served at 165 to 180 degrees. All major retailers, he says, adhere to these temperatures.

If served coffee is 60 degrees hotter than a steaming shower, he asks, how do customers tolerate it? They take tentative sips, add cream or milk, or wait until it cools.

"Somebody spills it on himself and says it was too hot," he said. "But it has to be that hot in order for the flavor to work."

Other factors besides temperature determine whether the spilled liquid will result in a burn, he said. These include how long the hot liquid stays on the skin, and the age, sex or physical circumstances of the spill victim.

If the victim is able to remove their soaked clothing immediately, to splash cold water on their skin and to apply a topical cream, he says, they may not receive a lasting burn.

If, however, they're driving and trapped in a car seatbelt, unable to pull over to the side of the road and disrobe, then the hot liquid can cause a lasting burn.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/dunkin-donuts-sued-hot-apple-cider-burns/story?id=22656060

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Chloe Weigand's parents will be interviewed by Savannah Gutherie on the Today Show tomorrow morning.  Not sure what time.  I saw a commercial for it during the NBC Evening News tonight.  It looks like it was recorded previously, so it probably isn't a live interview.

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35 minutes ago, Brobbins246 said:

Chloe Weigand's parents will be interviewed by Savannah Gutherie on the Today Show tomorrow morning.  Not sure what time.  I saw a commercial for it during the NBC Evening News tonight.  It looks like it was recorded previously, so it probably isn't a live interview.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to be at the TV 7 a.m. (which will take some doing, I usually work out at 6:30, will have to make it earlier if I can).

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I saw on Facebook that the godmother for freedom of the seas was refusing m drafting a letter to NBC criticizing their decision to interview the parents.  She went over summer of they facts and then emphasized that many people who could refute the claims were unable to speak out due to the impending litigation.  I thought it was well written.  Jane

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30 minutes ago, mom2mybugs said:

I saw on Facebook that the godmother for freedom of the seas was refusing m drafting a letter to NBC criticizing their decision to interview the parents.  She went over summer of they facts and then emphasized that many people who could refute the claims were unable to speak out due to the impending litigation.  I thought it was well written.  Jane

Thanks, Jane, it's an excellent point. I must admit, it also seems grotesque to be interviewing parents who so recently suffered such a great loss. When my daughter was killed (many years ago), my friends protected me from the press, because I was so dazed with grief. The Weigands' are undoubtedly still stunned and bleeding from their souls and it seems invasive to put them in front of the country at this time, with it so fresh. Could the lawyer be at the source of this? How crass!! On second thought, I don't think I can bear to see them being manipulated in this way.

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40 minutes ago, mom2mybugs said:

I saw on Facebook that the godmother for freedom of the seas was refusing m drafting a letter to NBC criticizing their decision to interview the parents.  She went over summer of they facts and then emphasized that many people who could refute the claims were unable to speak out due to the impending litigation.  I thought it was well written.  Jane

Can you share that letter with us?

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I just watched the interview on the Today Show.  How I wish someone had advised the parents not to do this interview. It will only expose them to undue scrutiny in today’s social media climate.  

It also saddens me that they have not taken responsibility for this accident.  They kept blaming “the open window in the kid zone” which in my opinion could not have been accessible to an 18-month old child.

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59 minutes ago, RatedPG said:

I just watched the interview on the Today Show.  How I wish someone had advised the parents not to do this interview. It will only expose them to undue scrutiny in today’s social media climate.  

It also saddens me that they have not taken responsibility for this accident.  They kept blaming “the open window in the kid zone” which in my opinion could not have been accessible to an 18-month old child.

Did they make any reference to the barrage of posts from people supporting that this is a ridiculous & baseless lawsuit?

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I turned on the Today show right in the middle of the Weigand segment and could watch only about a minute of it  . .  . . . obviously WAY too soon for them to be facing the public, emotions very raw (reminded me of how I felt in the days/weeks/months following my daughter's death) and THE LAWYER also appeared in the segment (wow, what publicity for him, how else does a lawyer get on the Today show!!), and I was disgusted and turned it off. But what I heard the mom say was word-for-word what the lawyer had said to the press.

I like to believe he approached them, a cruise ship chaser a/o/t an ambulance chaser, and talked them into this. A legal firm offered to work with me, too, after my daughter was killed, but much, much later . . . . but I didn't go forward with it. And no one pushed ME in front of the public, the newspaper and TV news stories took place without me. Are we a nation of voyeurs? 

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41 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

But what I heard the mom say was word-for-word what the lawyer had said to the press.

An added detail is the mom’s response to RCCL’s statement that the open window was for ventilation.  She said that fans should be used instead of windows.

I scratched my head on that one because I personally prefer the salty sea breeze on cruise ships over recirculated stale air.

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32 minutes ago, RatedPG said:

An added detail is the mom’s response to RCCL’s statement that the open window was for ventilation.  She said that fans should be used instead of windows.

I scratched my head on that one because I personally prefer the salty sea breeze on cruise ships over recirculated stale air.

And I can't picture a fan on the upper decks....

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3 hours ago, BunnyHutt said:

I watched the interview. There is no doubt that the family is dealing with immense pain and I think their placing blame on RCCL (albeit misguided) is the only way they’re able to function. 

I absolutely agree.  They are suing as a grief coping mechanism because the only other alternative is to blame the grandfather.  1)Why would anyone allow kids to bang against glass? 2) He couldn’t recognize an open window and the air coming through? 3) He was the one who endangered the child by deliberately lifting her up. 4) He was with the child and responsible for her safety.

Horrible, horrific situation.  I had a neighbor who ran over his own child.  How a family gets through something like this, I have no idea.  Blaming RCCL I guess is easier than the alternative.

RCCL will likely settle. Their alternative is to attack the grandfather in court regarding his actions.  Bad optics.  Then again, who knows which way a jury would go...

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Here's what was posted on the Freedom FB page: (if not appropriate, I apologize and please delete):

Cheryl Knipe Brinson

This is a copy of Louise Calder’s post that was sent to the Today show. You can share from here. If you have an opinion to express send it along to the show.

This is a very long post but wanted feedback suggestions of any changes in this email I plan to send to the TODAY Show. I will wait a couple of hours before I send it in case someone sees a change or addition I should consider. Thanks for your input.: Dear TODAY SHOW- I am very saddened by the news that Monday you will be interviewing the parents of the 18 month old child that tragically fell from the Freedom of the Seas. While my heart goes out to these poor parents for the loss of their child, I'm disappointed that you are doing this interview on the Today Show before we truly know how this accident happened. The police investigation has not been completed and all facts have not yet been released to the public. Trying to present an unbiased report would seem to be an impossible task at this time since others involved in this story are unable or unwilling to talk to you until all the facts are available.

Since the entire show was taped on board her the day I Christened her in 2006, I know that the TODAY show has spent time on the Freedom of the Seas. You should already be aware that the "children's play area" is NOT "right next" to the wall of windows. And if you check some of that footage you will also notice that the only windows that open are above an adults waist, and tinted making it quite clear that some are closed and some are open in order to keep the pool humidity controlled on that deck. No child could have reached those upper windows, open or closed, without someone holding the child up to them or somehow allowing the child to climb up to them. It is ALWAYS the adult's responsibility to monitor their young child whether it be near an open window , a pool, a fire, or any other potential danger. Whether on vacation or at home the responsibility belongs to the adult that has accepted the duty of watching that child. As a grandparent myself I understand that this must be a heartbreaking experience that will haunt this grandfather for the rest of his life. It is hard to accept that one little mistake can result in such a catastrophic tragedy. However trying to place the blame elsewhere, while a very human self-protection, will never absolve him of the responsibility that was his and his alone. I believe when this investigation is finished we will find that this was a truly awful ACCIDENT but one that resulted from an error on his part. And who of us is not human enough to commit an error.

If this were truly a fault in the design of cruise ships we would certainly be hearing of children falling from windows all the time. It is unfair to interpret this accident as an example of how "dangerous" cruising is. ANYTHING can be dangerous if normal precautions aren't taken.

To my knowledge, I know of no other time in the Freedom of the Seas 13 years of sailing that ANYTHING like this has ever occurred aboard her and I'm sure you can imagine that I keep a close eye on what happens on her,

Katherine Louise Calder

Godmother for the Freedom of the Seas

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2 hours ago, SummerJoy72 said:

 

RCCL will likely settle. 

I sincerely hope not. I've been around cruise ships since I came into this world; correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing screens in windows on open decks on any cruise line. Now, I only go back as far as the 50's, so I could be wrong. Both the parents and the attorney state that the open window is  in the Kids Zone, but the Kid's Zone is centered over the keel. It does not include the area that the toddler fell from.  

I understand we need to have compassion for the family, but we also have to be just and realistic in assigning the blame for this situation. I have yet to hear if this was the first time on a cruise ship for this family and yet, they talk about it being unimaginable that a window would be open on a pool deck. They speak  as though having fixed windows is the norm, which it is not.

 

 

 

 

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I hope that RCCL WILL settle, to keep this away from a jury and the public eye. Settling is not an admission of guilt or responsibility, it's to keep it out of court and could be seen instead as a large donation to the grieving family. Unfortunately, as a nation we tend to think that the decision of a jury is "the truth," so that if the jury finds for the plaintiff (the parents), the country will say, "See? It was the cruise line's fault!" And RCCL will seal all the windows and install fans instead.

Settling will make the story go away; a trial will put it in front of the nation, which will accept the jury's verdict as "the truth." Juries will identify with the family, because the jury will be made up of people, who have families, and don't own cruise lines. It will be impossible for RCCL to get a jury of its peers. We on this blog all know that it wasn't RCCL's fault, and that accidents happen, and very sadly, that's what this was.

BTW, how else can we show support for RCCL, besides remaining Loyal to Royal?

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11 hours ago, RatedPG said:

An added detail is the mom’s response to RCCL’s statement that the open window was for ventilation.  She said that fans should be used instead of windows.

I scratched my head on that one because I personally prefer the salty sea breeze on cruise ships over recirculated stale air.

And what if a child put their hand in the fan!   The cruise line will always be blamed.  Sad for what happened, but angry that the family will not take responsibility.  I am sure it was an accident, the grandfather didn’t want to hurt his granddaughter, but speak truthfully if you want to make sure it never happens to another child.  No other parent will put a child on a railing, because in a split second that child can get away from you.  

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