Jump to content
MattCasey

Freedom of the Seas Fatality?

Recommended Posts

 

It's shocking to see (on social media) how many people don't understand that the ship is not unsafe -- they only see an accident in which the child died. The Grandfather who placed the child on the railing is at fault and will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life. A tragedy for all involved. My children travel with me and are never placed on any surface where they could fall overboard. I book balconies and they are not allowed out there alone. Common sense....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very tragic , I hope the family will be able to recover and continue with their lives, I understand why they are trying to shift the blame to the cruise line.  
Based on the current information its hard for me to understand how someone will mistake an open window to be a glass wall. If today we will blame the cruise ship for heaving open windows maybe tomorrow someone will blame them for getting diabetes due to all the food which is served in the buffet ?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JLMoran said:

Point of order: In the photos posted here of the area where it happened, I don’t see a window pane a passenger can open. All the square panels are either glassed in and immovable, or completely open. Seeing as this area on deck 11 is mostly open space to begin with, not much point in having a window that opens and closes and thus the design that we see.

If remembered right, the windows are like a sliding glass door. If you look at the video of daytime, you can tell some windows are open and the window next to it is slightly darker. Did the grandfather put her on the railing next to a window that was closed but not latched? He turns his head for a brief instant and that little girl leaned onto it, it slid it open and she fell out? Tragedy? Yes. Negligence on RC part? Guess we'll find out, but not to us. No matter lawyer's intent, still pray for the family. They've got enough to deal with besides us piling on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, RWDW1204 said:

 He turns his head for a brief instant and that little girl leaned onto it, it slid it open and she fell out? 

I don't think the window would open this easily.  I've tried opening windows on a ship and it takes a lot of effort to get it to move.   Grandparents have a hard time saying no.  If the child wanted to be at the window, he could have picked her up and not  paid attention to the position of the glass.   We may never know what happened or what he was thinking.  It's all very, very sad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The attorney references a hockey rink and lifting her to the top of the boards so she could see through the glass.  This is apparently critical to his strategy since they have distributed a photo of it and he has mentioned it several times.  Yet the picture the attorney is distributing of her at a hockey rink shows her standing on the floor and leaning on the glass at the hockey rink. 

cruise-lawsuit-toddler-pics_3.jpg.ecd8fbeb5162e646a78ac26920f456ba.jpg

(Some news outlets have cropped the photo so you see just her upper body and hands on the glass.)

The ship also has glass starting at floor level.  She could have stayed on the floor on the ship, looked through the glass just like at the hockey rink and banged on it all she wanted to just like at the hockey rink, safely standing on her feet.  There was no need to pick her up so she could see out the window.  Why pick her up to place her on the railing so she could look outside when she could already see outside from the floor? 

It makes no sense.  The view isn't any better from the railing than it is from the floor, unless she wanted to look out the open window in which case they knew the window was open and he simply lost his grip somehow. 

There is a lot that just doesn't add up with the story.  

How is it the local police as first responders came to the conclusion that they did?  He must have said something or explained it in the anxiety of the moment that the police investigators picked up on.    

It will be interesting to see how local authorities handle this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know, I know, the bottom line is that this is truly a painful tragedy, but it bothers me that they claim they could not distinguish an opening in the "wall of windows"...

Two quick random pictures pulled up clearly showing how dark the glass is tinted on Freedom in the H2O zone, especially where the opened panes now overlap the adjacent fixed panes to the left of each opening.

I find it almost impossible to believe that anyone that was actually looking at the glass could miss the openings when we can all see them clearly across the deck in just these two photos (maybe 100 feet away?). We can count each and every opening... how do you miss them standing 1-2 feet directly in front of one? And once again, handrails are for hands, not feet or butts.

One shot is on a cloudy day and the other on a nice bright sunny day...

image.thumb.png.ed785b479bdb75137f93fd58958fd41c.png

image.thumb.png.1d3ec423e6df0463068da6e7d447a31e.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, BunnyHutt said:

The lawyer is the one who is publicly stating it was in a kids area. The only thing I can think he may be talking about would be a splash pad of some sort, but I am not familiar with this ship, or class of ships. 

IME, however, all windowed areas on pool decks are seating, not play areas. That’s just common sense factoring into the design. 

To go back to the comment above about the number of people who fall overboard every year, I don’t doubt that. In fact, there was a crew member who fell overboard on the Carnival Victory last week - the same day we were sailing through the same waters on Majesty. But I am not aware of anyone (adult or child) falling out of an open window. 

He no doubt knows and realises what he has done and is trying to take the Guilt of this Tragedy away from himself? Hopefully if the Child's Family Members decide to sue RCI Nothing Will become of this and will be removed from the court's? I don't know this doesn't seem right to me!! Where were the Parents? Also the Wife of the Grandfather who was in charge of his Granddaughter when she fell from an open window he didn't know was open yet he was sitting her on the Window or dangling her from the open window when she Tragically Lost Her Life!! Yet The Grandfather Didn't Realise The Window Was Open? Her Family Members are being to Quick in Laying The Blame With Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines As Though I Am Very Very Sorry To Say Are Now Trying Too Make Money Out Of This Devastating Tragedy? I Am Very Sure I Will Not Be The Only Person Thinking Along These Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Cruisin' Queen said:

 

It's shocking to see (on social media) how many people don't understand that the ship is not unsafe -- they only see an accident in which the child died. The Grandfather who placed the child on the railing is at fault and will have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life. A tragedy for all involved. My children travel with me and are never placed on any surface where they could fall overboard. I book balconies and they are not allowed out there alone. Common sense....

In my opinion, it would be negligent to place a child on a railing even with a closed window.  Such a small child should be held firmly against the body, be seated on a chair, or be on the ground.  There is simply too much risk to injury from falling 3 or 4 feet to the deck.   As you said, common sense....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Ann Worth said:

He no doubt knows and realises what he has done and is trying to take the Guilt of this Tragedy away from himself? 

Hmmm...it appears the very moment after the incident that lead to the child's death, he immediately tried to remove guilt of this tragedy, by intentionally cover it up with a lie, that the 18mon(whom can barely walk)somehow pull herself up a 4 foot window, only to fall out of the middle payne window. The ship authorities realized the grandparent account of the event did not line up. Prompting a story changed, that the child slipped from his hands & the reports of conflicting accounts. Of course now...the story is the grandparent unknowingly failed to recognized the window payne was open & the child pressing against the glass(as she apparently always do at hockey games)fell over & slipped out of his hands...which is probably, the more accurate account of what happened, minus not recognizing an open window payne. 

I suspect the little girl is the one who did not know there was no glass there & proceeded to act as if it was; because, she likes slapping at glass windows and with enough gyrations to slip out of her grandfather's hand. Still negligence on his part couple with initial lying about his role in the matter & intentional deflecting blame.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also noted how the attorney claims the "hidden danger" of opening windows has been fixed on newer ships.  New ships like Quantum and Oasis class have similar windows that open in places, it seems he is trying to paint a picture through falsehoods and sway public opinion.

Despite best efforts this glass is never perfectly clean.  They do their best but sea spray and years of exposure to weather makes the glass wall anything but perfectly clean.  I'd never take a picture through the glass because it is usually isn't clean enough to take good pictures through.  An open window is distinctly different from the fixed glass areas. 

Further more, when a window is slid open where the sliding glass now sits right or left of the opening is double tinted, the tinting from the fixed pane of glass and the tinting of the sliding glass.  This makes the contrast with the open section even more obvious.  

You can see this effect in the picture @coneyraven posted above.  The ship viewed through the open window is very clear, the ship viewed through the double tinted area is blurry.

It seems the accident happened port side.  Isn't that the smoking section?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, I premise this post with I feel for the family, especially the grandfather, the guilt he will carry for the rest of his life will be enormous.  That being said, as grandparents I know I never would have done that....I can't say never, but I can say before I lifted the child I would make sure the glass was locked closed.  We expect our son to get engaged soon. His GF is a Disney fanatic and for them they want to do a weddingmoon and get married on a Disney cruise.  We will have 2 grandbabies by that time.  It will be the 1st time that I will be adamant we get an ocean view.  We are very close to our grandbug and I can see her coming into our cabin, she is a climber.  I would be paranoid the entire trip, and I had made this decision before this tragedy.  

Now, for my take on this.  I really think they hired this attorney or the attorney approached them and informed them to get in front of this.  As stated the Chief of Detectives is San Juan has stated they have yet to determine if criminal charges will occur.  Having this attorney on their behalf immediately casts a shadow in the grandfathers culpability.

I am also with others regarding the windows.  You don't have to be a life long cruiser to know that the window was open, between the tinting and the breeze you would immediately know it was open.  Maybe he was holding her in front of the closed window, but right next to the open window and she sidestepped to the open.  It was their 1st day on the ship so if it was their 1st cruise it might not have crossed their mind.

Again, as a grandparent, I know my son and wife would be with us.  They are insanely stringent on what we can and cannot do with our grand daughter.  I know my son would absolutely say NO you cannot lift her up on the hand rail.  

In the end I do believe that RCL will pay them out of court and in the future they probably make sure the windows cannot open.  This brings me to another point.  I have not sailed on Freedom, but what are their balconies like?  On all of our other cruises, the balcony had glass, but looking at the pics for my cruise Friday on Adventure, it appears the balcony is metal horizontal bars, which for little kids is an attractive thing to climb.  I can see them looking at this and retrofitting the ships to only have the glass to reduce risks of climbing and falling overboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Pima1988 said:

My husband told me about this last night.  We actually have a 2 yr old grand daughter and another granddaughter due while we are probably on the cruise. We could immediately feel for the grandfather.  The original story we read was it was a balcony.  We could relate to the grandfather in one way, the age of the child they will wriggle a lot.  However, not trying to be callous to the family, our very next thought was why on earth would you get so close to the balcony with the little one?   

Now the story is that it was in the kids play area and a window was open.  Maybe my hubby and I are the conservative grandparents, but there is no way we would pick her up without tapping on the glass to make sure it is closed first.  

My heart breaks for the entire family, but as a grandparent I don't know how my husband and I emotionally would get past this, even with intense therapy.  The guilt will never leave him, and I am so blessed to still be madly in love with him, seeing his pain would just kill me too.  

I am sure that the grandfather loved that little girl very much.  I am sure he never thought about her wriggling.  He just wanted to see her smile, afterall that is the joy of being a grandparent....make them smile and hand them back to their parents.

My bet is Royal will settle out of court.  The reality is they have insurance for this reason.  However, no money that the family ever receives will not change how they feel on her birthday, on Christmas, and every vacation they ever take again.

Just my opinion, for me, I would just want them to pay the burial costs and get me back home so I could start the healing process if that is even possible.

I For one don't see how Royal Caribbean Cruises should take the blame one of the Grandfathers was at fault he sat or was dangling his Granddaughter from an open window on the 11 Deck where they were at the time he lost his grip she Tragically Fell To Her Death? He Then Said He Didn't Realise The Window Was Open? With Her Sitting Or Being Dangled From An Open Window How Can He Not Have Realised The Window Was Open? I am a Mum and a Grandma No way would I or could I Sit Or Dangle Any Of Them From An Open Window Life Is Far Too Precious To Put Any Of Their Lives At Risk Like This.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am curious where the parents were at this time.  Did they see him take her to the windows and lift her up?  

I understand by news accounts that the parents had to be sedated, I would have to be too.  However, nothing has been said where they were when the tragedy occurred.  The only thing I have read/seen was that the father of the child took a picture of the area (yellow tape is seen) showing the windows.  

Please, don't read into this as anything more than just curiosity.  As a grandparent we take our little bug out just the 2 of us so my kids can have a break, but just thinking aloud, this was the 1st day, they were still in port, so you would think that as a family they would all be near each other.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ann Worth  I am assuming your either from the UK or Australia....only reason why is you said Mum, not Mom.  

Unfortunately, the US is a very litigious country.  Go to any Mc Donald's drive thru and you will see on the window....Caution: Coffee is hot.  DUH! That is because a woman spilled her coffee on her lap and sued them.  I think she won 3 Million.  This was probably 15-20 yrs ago

The attorneys are probably already working out a settlement as we discuss this topic.  I am sure it will be in the millions, bc RCL knows that if they faced a jury and if that jury pool has never cruised they would side with them.  

I remember in NYC, I think it was when Eric Clapton's son fell from a high story building window or balcony they changed the regulations.  Now they cannot open or they must have guard rails over the windows.  I don't think he sued, I just think the media attention was so large they decided to created the regulation

I live in VA.  I was a Realtor.  If a new home is built with an outdoor access they must place a wooden fence like guard if there is no deck  to get a certificate of occupancy (CO), o CO, no closing on the home.  Height requirement is 24 inches.  You have to know that came because long ago someone probably thought they could jump that 24 inches to the ground, broke an ankle and sued.

On the east coast we have a burger chain called Five Guys.  They have peanuts for you to enjoy while you wait for your meal.  The fries are fried in Peanut Oil.  There are signs all over the place stating they use peanut oil.  This too I am sure came about somewhere long ago when someone had a reaction and sued.  

Go into other places and you will see Microwaves are used.  

Look at your car owners manual.  My 2016 Nissan Murano has 50 pages regarding seat belts and child seats.

The list goes on and on.  Ski?  Look at the back if your lift ticket.   Fly? Look at the fine print.  

I will say if course if this attorney is the one that changed RCL to hire life guards, good on him.  The sad part is not every cruise line has followed suit.  Sometimes the fall out gives benefits to the customer.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a lot of people don't realize is that when someone wins a baseless lawsuit and receives a large reward, they get appealed.  Often the rewards are greatly reduced or even eliminated. That is not newsworthy and so people don't know about it. If companies just relented and settled,  it would only encourage more suits which is really a form of extortion. I still think this is a desperate attempt to protect the grandfather. We are all just speculating as we are not privy to all the facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a window every 15 to 20'.   All cruise lines have them.  

These windows have been present on passenger ships for a very ling time. From ferries to cruise ships it has never been a problem until this week.   People may have dropped their sunglasses, hats or phones out of them, but I've never heard of a child falling from one.

On the Voyager class that have the cove balconies (opposed to glass) I don't think they can easily convert to glass nor do I think they need to.  The metal is part of the ships overall infrastructure.  When Navigator and Mariner were built they had the opportunity of addressing the overall integrity of the entire superstructure to facilitate glass borrowing from the Freedom class architecture with glass balconies.   Retrofitting ship infrastructure isn't so easy and doesn't address the issue.

The larger issue with balconies is chairs and tables.  An unsupervised climbing toddler could easily climb onto a chair and then look over the balcony railing.  If too much weight is put forth they could tumble over.  One solution is for parents to always supervise their children.  The other is to remove chairs from balconies.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, twangster said:

The larger issue with balconies is chairs and tables.  An unsupervised climbing toddler could easily climb onto a chair and then look over the balcony railing.  If too much weight is put forth they could tumble over.  One solution is for parents to always supervise their children.  The other is to remove chairs from balconies.

Or floor to ceiling glass balconies, No thanks, i prefer people be responsible and use common sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, BB1 said:

The woman who burned herself from the coffee was originally awarded almost $3million . She eventually received $ 640 thousand. Still ridiculous.

I'm sorry this is wrong. Not calling you out in particular since this is a huge misconception across the country. 

McDonald's was absolutely negligent in how they served their coffee. 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13971482/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit-stella-liebeck

The 79 year-old victim suffered third degree burns on her legs and genitals which required extensive surgery to repair because McDonald's served coffee at over 190 degrees. They also knew that this was a problem because before this case they had already received over 700 reports of burns due to hot coffee. They didn't even deny they knew this was dangerous in the case! Yet they continued to serve it at near boiling temperatures. 

In addition the victim didn't want to file a lawsuit. She only wanted her medical expenses paid. McDonalds refused and only offered her $800. Her lawsuit was for those expenses only but the jury thought McDonald's was so negligent that they awarded her even more. 

So how did it end up that everyone in America thinks she was greedy because she got some lukewarm coffee on her? McDonald's funded a misinformation campaign that the media bought into and spread to everyone. Corporations have used this fake story to keep people with real injuries from pursuing damages for fear they might be considered in the same way this woman was. Don't fall for McDonald's lies.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...