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Freedom of the Seas Fatality?

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10 hours ago, Jjohnb said:

Sounds a little fishy, the picture of her banging on glass at the hockey game has her "standing on the ground" banging the glass, on Freedom, the glass on the pool deck goes all the way to the ground so why could she have not stood on the ground and bang on the glass there as well?  Why did the grandfather lift her up and place her on the ledge or through an open window before letting go?  How can she bang on an open window?  Very fishy!

I fully believe the attorney trolled the family’s social media accounts, found that picture, and concocted the story before ever meeting with them. They latched on to that theory because it was the only one that ‘made sense’ in their grief-stricken minds. 

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12 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

I hate reading comments on social media pages of people who obviously have never been on a Royal Caribbean ship and maybe have never cruised all their life so I made this...

 

image.thumb.png.908127e65d1084d89760ff89a7a0c617.png

This is excellent!! It would be great if someone could post it to Facebook or Twitter where it might go viral.

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13 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

 

image.thumb.png.908127e65d1084d89760ff89a7a0c617.png

Looking at the picture above, I ask this simple question in regards to RCCL's liability.

Would the toddler have fallen out of the window without her grandfather's help?

I don't see anyway it would have. 

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1 hour ago, FManke said:

Looking at the picture above, I ask this simple question in regards to RCCL's liability.

Would the toddler have fallen out of the window without her grandfather's help?

I don't see anyway it would have. 

EXACTLY!  This is the reason why I have gotten very defensive of Royal on this issue.  I am beyond appalled by the lawyer's allegations and spin on the narrative.  The way I see it, the cause of the accident is NOT the children's play area being on that deck with the windows, NOT the open window, NOT the toddler being fond of banging glass on hockey games, NOT the lack of additional safety measures taken by Royal ... IT IS THE GRANDFATHER PUTTING THE TODDLER ON THE RAILING!!!

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1 hour ago, FManke said:

Looking at the picture above, I ask this simple question in regards to RCCL's liability.

Would the toddler have fallen out of the window without her grandfather's help?

I don't see anyway it would have. 

Yes. If she climbed on the chair, onto the table, which would have to be right next to the  window, then leaned over the railing. The whole time while no one us paying attention to her.(Said with sarcasm). We're on Royal's side.

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2 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

This is excellent!! It would be great if someone could post it to Facebook or Twitter where it might go viral.

I have posted it as a reply to posts by clueless people who ask, "Why would there be an open window in the children's play area on the 11th deck of a ship?"

I so want to reply to them, "Hey, go one deck up and you will see an entire deck surrounded by just OPEN railings!!! How careless of the cruise company!!!" (Sarcasm intended)

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If the trial was happening in the USA, the District Attorney would take the jury on a walk around the crime scene, and they would see for themselves where the children's play area is in relation to the child's falling. I don't know how it plays out in Puerto Rico. But if the grandfather is found guilty, there will be no basis for a suit against the cruise line. If he is acquitted, the finger of blame will point to RCC. So let's hope he is found guilty and given a light sentence. He seems to be cooperating fully with the PR authorities, which indicates he's willing to take responsibility . . . . . not like the diplomat's wife who killed a cyclist with her car and skipped the country to avoid facing up to her crime!

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49 minutes ago, Matt said:

Puerto Rico is part of the USA, so it is taking place in the United States.

True, Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. But this from the Internet Puerto Rico Legal System: "The Puerto Rico legal system differs greatly from the legal system utilized throughout the Continental United States"

So whether the jury will be taken to view the crime scene is unclear, at least to me. I hope they are taken to view it, because that will clear up the confusion cast on the events by the family's attorney.

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On 10/28/2019 at 8:25 PM, twangster said:

If someone leaves their infant in a locked car and that child dies in the heat they will likely face charges.  They could be convicted or not.  If convicted they will face sentencing that can take into account the impact that has already occurred to everyone involved.  Some jurisdictions have minimum sentences and in some cases the court process can render a sentence deemed appropriate.  That could be a slap on wrist or incarceration.  

As parents our children are our responsibility.  Sometimes bad things happen that are out of our control.  That's not the case here.  When someone plays a role that results in death regardless if it's their own family or a stranger, it warrants a trial.  An investigator or district attorney should not solely be responsible to decide if that person has suffered enough or the level of guilt involved.  Sometimes a DA might decide there isn't enough evidence and a trial is not warranted.  That's not the case here.  No DA should become a judge and decide the extent of their suffering.  Let the court do that.

In this case he has refused to accept any responsibility.  "Not my fault, someone else left the window open".  That may have a played a factor in deciding to pursue charges since he apparently feels no guilt.  He claims no responsibility and refuses to accept he did anything wrong.  His family has taken the same position resulting in the lawsuit against the company.

If nothing else perhaps the trial will wake them up to the fact that his actions resulted in a loss of life.  

He needs to realize he did this, not the person who opened the window and not the company because they have windows.  

I agree that the grandpa and the family have to take the responsibility for the child's death. All the bloggers agree that it was the Grandpa responsibility to verify that the ledge was safe for the child. Apparently, the ledge was too high as he could not feel the breeze coming from the open window and he did not check whether the window was open. Had he look at the row of windows, he would clearly see the difference in color indicating the open window. And then, he lost a grip on the child ( drunk, overmedicated?)? I wonder, if PR police took a blood test to verify whether he was under influence? We all agree, it is a lot of crap to maintain he could not determine whether the window was open or closed. Royal Caribbean cannot change the ship in a floating prison with bars on every window. What about the sundeck? It is up the child guardians to ensure their child safety. The parents need to assume the blame and stop blaming Royal Caribbean. Not to many children are reported falling from the ship right?

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4 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

But if the grandfather is found guilty, there will be no basis for a suit against the cruise line. If he is acquitted, the finger of blame will point to RCC

A civil lawsuit is different than a criminal case because the bar is set lower regarding negligence, plus it does not have to be unaminous,, it has to be a majority.  Thus,  even if he is found guilty it does not mean RCCL will be off the hook financially.

 

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The grandfather dropped the baby. There is probably video of it and if there is, it would eliminate all speculation and stories.  Remember the original story was that the baby climbed up on a chair.The grandfather is the proximate cause. I wonder if any of the people who witness this catastrophe and are suffering from PTSD and receiving counseling will be lining up to sue the family for their distress. They will likely have claims too. I don't think it would be in Royal's interest to just settle.

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On 10/29/2019 at 9:50 PM, PG Cruiser said:

I hate reading comments on social media pages of people who obviously have never been on a Royal Caribbean ship and maybe have never cruised all their life so I made this...

 

image.thumb.png.908127e65d1084d89760ff89a7a0c617.png

I wish you would send this to the Today Show or post it on their Facebook page.  I used to really enjoy the Today Show but now it just makes me sick because they are making ratings off of this and they are totally wrong. 

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18 hours ago, Pima1988 said:

A civil lawsuit is different than a criminal case because the bar is set lower regarding negligence

That varies by the state. I was on the jury in a civil case against a construction company a couple of years ago, where a motorcyclist lost control and was killed because the guardrail had been removed and left unreplaced by the company for several weeks. The motorcyclist's father had brought the case, and they were aiming for findings of both liability and negligence. We were instructed by the judge that to find the company negligent required passing a very specific set of checks, per NJ laws, vs. finding them simply liable. We all agreed while in deliberation that, given the list of requirements for when a company could be found negligent vs. not, we had no choice but to say not negligent as much as we wanted to do otherwise.

That said, we found them liable as all get-out and agreed on a fine that we hoped would send a strong message even after the likely appeals. It was absolutely unequivocal that had the railing been replaced in the timely manner that would be expected, rather than left with nothing but exposed mounting bolts for weeks, the guy would only have been injured by the accident and not killed; instead of being thrown over the retaining wall and falling to his death, he'd have hit the railing and stayed on the road.

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I am surprised as much misinformation the press and the family lawyer are providing in this case. Firstly, they say the accident happened in the baby play area but the latest pictures show the accident happened in the pool area open to everybody (babies, children, adults). Anybody could open the window in question. However, the pictures clearly show windows going from the floor level to the ceiling and the windows on the child level were closed and if the grandpa he kept her on the floor level she would be alive today. I fail to understand the grandpa reason for putting 18 months old child on the window ledge. I also cannot comprehend how he did not notice the open window as all windows in the pool area are tinted blue green and not crystal clean? What caused the accident- booze, opioids, medical condition and total recklessness? It is the child guardian responsibility to ensure the child safety. Royal Caribbean cannot prevent accidents caused by our reckless actions and they should not be forced to put bars on the windows, deck area, balconies and etc to keep all the jerks in. The indictment against the grandpa is proper. I am also annoyed that the parents want now to capitalize on the death of the poor child.baby Chloe pool deck area.pdf

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The family and lawyer probably have no idea what even happened.  The initial story was that the baby climbed up on a chair. They have not been allowed to view th surveillance footage.  They are making up a defense from thin air. When the footage is shown at trial, that should show what truly happened. Since the grandfather is being charged criminally,  I think it speaks for itself. 

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1 hour ago, Manana Chkadua said:

I am surprised as much misinformation the press and the family lawyer are providing in this case. Firstly, they say the accident happened in the baby play area but the latest pictures show the accident happened in the pool area open to everybody (babies, children, adults). Anybody could open the window in question. However, the pictures clearly show windows going from the floor level to the ceiling and the windows on the child level were closed and if the grandpa he kept her on the floor level she would be alive today. I fail to understand the grandpa reason for putting 18 months old child on the window ledge. I also cannot comprehend how he did not notice the open window as all windows in the pool area are tinted blue green and not crystal clean? What caused the accident- booze, opioids, medical condition and total recklessness? It is the child guardian responsibility to ensure the child safety. Royal Caribbean cannot prevent accidents caused by our reckless actions and they should not be forced to put bars on the windows, deck area, balconies and etc to keep all the jerks in. The indictment against the grandpa is proper. I am also annoyed that the parents want now to capitalize on the death of the poor child.

I tend to agree with you.

Since there is glass starting at the floor there was no reason to lift the child unless the child wanted to look out the open window.  That glass is often covered with sea salt on the outside and tinted.  I can understand someone preferring to look out an open window including the child.  Grandpa lost his grip.  Perhaps the child squirmed, perhaps he inadvertently tickled her or touched a funny bone causing her to squirm.  Picking up my kids sometimes they squirm.  I've never dropped a child but I've had to adjust and get a better grip to avoid doing so when they wiggle.

It was reported early on he doesn't drink alcohol but who knows.  

By releasing the photo of the child at the skating rink standing on the floor looking through the glass the lawyer actually damaged his own case.  She was not lifted at the skating rink and there was no need to lift her on the ship.  She had a view through the glass already standing on the floor just like at the hockey rink.  

Investigators were on the scene pretty quickly and I'm sure he said something in those first minutes after the incident. I'm not sure where the cameras are in that area or if they might have captured anything.  Cameras don't cover every square inch of all public areas.  Royal security officers would have been first on the scene and they wear body cameras so anything he said was caught on those.

I'm not sure if they are trying to capitalize on her death or simply trying to shift blame so they don't have to accept blame themselves.  It was reported they had to be sedated in the hours after the tragedy yet they were able to coordinate with an attorney in Florida and give him statements while avoiding the authorities on the basis that were too distraught and needed to be sedated.  I think if they had waited a few days to contract with the lawyer I might feel differently but they lawyered up very fast, in just a few hours.  They had plenty of time to think about legal action, what was the rush to do within a couple of hours?

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The security video was seen in court just this week by prosecutors, the defense team, ABC, and NBC.  The NY Post reported the following...

The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.

Family attorney Michael Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed.

“I just dropped my child! I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!” he yelled, Winkleman told CBS News. 

If this report is accurate, the grandfather could be in BIG trouble...

 

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

Grandpa lost his grip. 

I think if they had waited a few days to contract with the lawyer I might feel differently but they lawyered up very fast, in just a few hours.  They had plenty of time to think about legal action, what was the rush to do within a couple of hours?

In the first report I read, on the same day it happened, it was reported that Grandpa said he had lost his grip.

Knowing what I know about ambulance-chasing lawyers, I'm pretty confident that the lawyer read the report and saw an opportunity to take on Royal Caribbean, on a contingency basis, and pursued the family and convinced them to give him the case. They were so stunned and distraught, they probably didn't know what they were agreeing to. The lawyer is hoping RC will settle out of court to avoid bad publicity, and he will walk away with a hefty percentage of the amount of the settlement.

Sorry to be so jaded, but that's what living long, and having some wranglings with the criminal justice system, have done for me. 

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6 minutes ago, YOLO said:

The security video was seen in court just this week by prosecutors, the defense team, ABC, and NBC.  The NY Post reported the following...

The video, which did not include audio, shows Chloe wearing a white hat, her swimsuit and swim shoes, running across the pool area with her granddad a few feet behind, ABC reported.

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.

Family attorney Michael Winkleman said Anello repeatedly screamed that he thought the window was closed.

“I just dropped my child! I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!” he yelled, Winkleman told CBS News. 

If this report is accurate, the grandfather could be in BIG trouble...

 

This is extremely interesting, but I have a question . . . was the "rail" in question inboard of the windows? Could a child conceivably sit on the rail and peer out the window, without actually sticking their head OUT of the window? Could he have thought there was glass there? If they had had to stick their heads out of the window, there would go that argument.

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Just now, tiny blonde said:

This is extremely interesting, but I have a question . . . was the "rail" in question inboard of the windows? Could a child conceivably sit on the rail and peer out the window, without actually sticking their head OUT of the window? Could he have thought there was glass there? If they had had to stick their heads out of the window, there would go that argument.

The wooden railing, which you can see in the picture above, is inside of the windows.  I would guess when Chloe was sitting on it, her feet would be dangling outside.  I don't think there would be any other way, unless she was facing inwards and not outwards.  But that makes no sense to me.  I wonder if the grandfather let go of her while she was sitting on the railing and she slipped...

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25 minutes ago, YOLO said:

They walk over to a wall of windows, where Anello appears to look over the railing, through an open window. He picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing — and they appear to lean over to peer out over the port.

He then sits Chloe on the railing and they lean over again before she disappears from the frame when she falls 115 feet to her death. Moments later, Anello drops to the floor.

If this is true it's pretty damaging to the family's claim against Royal.  It appears Grandpa screwed up, made a tragic mistake.  

12 minutes ago, BB1 said:

I don't think there is audio. If there isn't,  that whole part is fabricated. 

The family attorney is simply stating that which he was told by the family.  It's entirely possible Grandpa said this to parents and the parents told the family attorney.  It's not legal testimony at this point so it doesn't have to be 100% factual, just like the attorney's claim this occurred in a "kids play area".  Nothing the family attorney says at this point has to be factually 100% accurate, he is free to claim whatever he wants in the media.  Whether he would try to do so in a courtroom is another matter.  

Keep in mind the family attorney is just representing the parents in a potential case against Royal.  He is not Grandpa's lawyer representing Grandpa in a defense capacity for the charges filed against Grandpa.  The family attorney's only goal at this point is keep his potential claim alive and in motion.

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