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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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12 minutes ago, BB1 said:

Why are they even doing public appearances and interviews? The whole situation is very suspect. Are they really trying to make a case to sue Royal? The court of public opinion is not going to sway grandpa's criminal trial. Are they just trying to get a payday? Bizarre.

Probably both get grandpa found not guilty and a payday.

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7 minutes ago, BB1 said:

Why are they even doing public appearances and interviews? The whole situation is very suspect. Are they really trying to make a case to sue Royal? The court of public opinion is not going to sway grandpa's criminal trial. Are they just trying to get a payday? Bizarre.

TV programs need something to air, they have this huge block of time and they have to present something the public is interested in. So they invite the Weigands and the Weigands are flattered by the invitation and eager to tell their story, make their case, which is, "Not our fault!" The parents are carrying guilt, too, because they entrusted the child to Grandpa. If he were merely a babysitter and not Grandpa, they'd be blaming him. They have to blame somebody, because they are being hounded by guilt. "I shouldn't have asked Pop to take the baby, he's old." "I should have been holding her myself." "I knew I shouldn't have been in the spa getting a massage." "I'm a failure as a mother/father." etc.

When my daughter was killed (thank you for your sympathy, no need to tell me, I know you care), the media jumped on it and asked me to do interviews, but my friends protected me. Still, after my friends left, I found myself accepting invitations, because I wanted the world to know how much I was hurting.

So that's why they're doing public appearances.

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5 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

This family gets my sympathy for their loss but their actions and statements puts me on the defensive for Royal.   On the Today Show this morning, they're still pushing the narrative about the windows being close to the children's play area and the grandfather's statement, "I thought there was glass".

This morning's coverage on The Today Show again had to mention that it occurred in a "children's play area".  That really aggravates me.

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There is  no defense. They are grasping at straws. It was just plain negligence. People empathize because of their own previous experiences but this has nothing to do with what happened to them. This is a totally different situation.  It's a  totally unnecessary tragedy but that does not get people off the hook for their actions. 

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I'm not colorblind but I was always under the impression that color blindness caused certain colors to be diminished or appear to be a different color.  Maybe red appears yellow while blue is blue sort of thing.  However there remains the concept of levels of light intensity even absent of all color.

In grayscale the intensity or brightness of an open window versus a tinted window versus the double tinting effect of the open window overlapped with the fixed tinted window creates at least three shade levels. 

An open window would appear much brighter than the fixed tinted glass and where the tinted window was slid over the fixed tinted glass next to it that double tinting is evident even in grayscale.  

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Then there are the other senses. 

The movement of air through an open window is undeniable.  Wind against the massive sides of a building or ship exerts pressure and when it finds an opening such as a window air moves through the window.  This effect occurs even on a relatively still day.

The sounds of a busy port like forklifts loading luggage, trucks moving around, the beep, beep, beep of backup alarms on various equipment, dock workers yelling at each to be heard over all the noises of a busy dock.  All that sound isn't heard on the pool deck except if you are near an open window.

Put it all together, the different light intensity, the movement of air and the sounds of a busy dock when all put together are data sources that provide clues to the brain. 

Diminishing one sensation shouldn't prevent the conclusion that something is different, the window is open.

Put on a pair of sunglass like the ones that make everything look rose colored, or everything appear bluish and you can still discern an open window from a fixed tinted pane of glass.

Try holding your phone and taking a picture through the fixed tinted glass.  No problem.  Take a step in front of an open window and you have an involuntary reaction that causes a death grip on your phone for fear you might drop it through the open window.  You don't need to tell yourself "The window is open, there is a danger".  It's an involuntary reaction and awareness that there is a danger present near an open window.  

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19 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

The Grandfather is being charged with negligent homicide. I don’t know if that necessary but neither is trying to sue Royal Caribbean. 

Understand the sentiment.  The charges come from Puerto Rico, not from Royal. 

When a child dies each jurisdiction has its own practices.  If a child is left in a hot car, if a child is run over in their driveway, if a child is malnourished or denied medical care, if a drunk parent crashes a car, etc..  Each has circumstances involved and potential sentence varies by jurisdiction.  

The argument that family has suffered enough is for a judge in a court to decide not an investigator or district attorney.  It could be a guilty verdict will take into account the grief the accused has endured when it comes to sentencing.  It could be there lacks enough evidence to satisfy the charge.  

If the accused had picked up a stranger’s child and accidentally dropped them leading to a death does that change anything?   Should the family connection be the deciding factor that charges are warranted or not?  

I don’t know. So the safe thing to do is let the court handle it.  

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On 12/3/2019 at 7:19 PM, twangster said:

Understand the sentiment.  The charges come from Puerto Rico, not from Royal. 

When a child dies each jurisdiction has its own practices.  If a child is left in a hot car, if a child is run over in their driveway, if a child is malnourished or denied medical care, if a drunk parent crashes a car, etc..  Each has circumstances involved and potential sentence varies by jurisdiction.  

The argument that family has suffered enough is for a judge in a court to decide not an investigator or district attorney.  It could be a guilty verdict will take into account the grief the accused has endured when it comes to sentencing.  It could be there lacks enough evidence to satisfy the charge.  

If the accused had picked up a stranger’s child and accidentally dropped them leading to a death does that change anything?   Should the family connection be the deciding factor that charges are warranted or not?  

I don’t know. So the safe thing to do is let the court handle it.  

Who said that Royal was charging him? My point was that I think it’s unnecessary to charge the man, It was a tragic accident. The grandfather is not a danger to society putting him in jail wouldn’t really accomplish anything. 

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2 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Who said that Royal was charging him? My point was that I think it’s unnecessary to charge the man, It was a tragic accident. The grandfather is not a danger to society putting him in jail wouldn’t really accomplish anything. 

We have to remember that the family, a day after the incident, has threatened to sue Royal for this "tragic accident".  They went on national TV spreading a narrative filled with inaccuracies. So it's not like the family is looking at this as an accident, they're trying to put the blame on Royal.  The charges made against the grandfather and the trials that follow will establish whose fault it is.

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As has been said before, when someone dies to to another person's negligence or wrongdoing, the state might be considered remiss in not investigating whether it was an accident or something more than that. That's why Puerto Rico has charged the grandfather and will uncover as much evidence as possible to clarify the case. I keep thinking of parents who have forgotten their babies in the back seats of cars and the children have died in the heat of a parked car. That's a comparable tragedy, and in those cases, too, according to a spokesperson for an organization that has analyzed 833 pediatric deaths caused by heatstroke in hot cars since the mid-1990s, "in 43 percent of those cases, no charges were filed. In 32 percent of the cases, the caregiver was charged and convicted. And in 11 percent of the cases, the person was charged with a crime, but the judge or jury did not convict. The other 14 percent accounts for cases that are still open or the status is unknown."

So there's still a possibility that the grandfather will be exonerated, or found guilty with no sentence, or a suspended sentence. I think it's important that the event be examined, because information is usually helpful. Sometimes elderly grandparents are inadequate chaperones (and I'm an elderly grandparent, saying this, and I would be the first to admit that I am no match for my active great-grandchildren and would never babysit them while they are awake and running about on a ship!!!).

 

 

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While no one is denying that the grandfather is grieving, the state has an obligation to enforce the law and the rights of the victim.  The little girl who had an entire lifetime stolen from her is the victim who deserves justice!  While the grandfather may be grieving, he is NOT the victim and has and will continue to life a full life.  

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On 12/5/2019 at 7:27 AM, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Who said that Royal was charging him? My point was that I think it’s unnecessary to charge the man, It was a tragic accident. The grandfather is not a danger to society putting him in jail wouldn’t really accomplish anything. 

The Grandfather is not taking  responsibility for his action and is tell everyone in the world it is someone else who is to blame.....People need to ensure safety of kids and punish people who endanger them.

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Trial date to be determined on December 17th.  This is latest I could find...

Salvatore Anello, 50, has appeared in a Puerto Rico court for the first time on November 20 charged with the negligent homicide of his granddaughter Chloe Wiegand, who died after falling from the 11th floor of Royal Caribbean's Freedom of the Seas while it was docked in San Juan on July 7.  During his brief appearance, no evidence was presented as the judge allowed the prosecution and defense more time to prepare ahead of his next court date on December 17, when a trial date will be set.

The family of the 18-month girl has long maintained that her death was an accident and Anello is not criminally responsible.  Police originally alleged that Chloe fell from Anello's grasp as he held her up to the window. Chloe's parents, Alan and Kimberly Wiegand, said the child accidentally fell through the window, which Anello didn't realize was open, after he placed her on a rail so she could bang on it.

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2 hours ago, YOLO said:

The family of the 18-month girl has long maintained that her death was an accident and Anello is not criminally responsible.  Chloe's parents, Alan and Kimberly Wiegand, said the child accidentally fell through the window, which Anello didn't realize was open, after he placed her on a rail so she could bang on it.

BTW, shouldn't an adult know better than to let a child (or anyone) bang on a window 11 stories above a public pier/walkway?  While not likely (although we now know unlikely things happen), what if the window would have broken (glass or even dislodged from it's frame) and fallen 11 stories onto the people below walking on the pier?  The grandfather was grossly negligent in so many ways!

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5 hours ago, Jjohnb said:

BTW, shouldn't an adult know better than to let a child (or anyone) bang on a window 11 stories above a public pier/walkway?  While not likely (although we now know unlikely things happen), what if the window would have broken (glass or even dislodged from it's frame) and fallen 11 stories onto the people below walking on the pier?  The grandfather was grossly negligent in so many ways!

That's been offered many times in this thread.  The glass starts at the floor so the child could see through the glass while standing on the floor.  

A child on a hand railing could fall sideways off the railing and split their head open on the hard pool deck floor, or break a leg or an arm, or any number of injuries falling nearly 3 1/2 to 4 feet off the railing to the floor.  They can fall onto a chair and lose an eye if they hit the edge of the armrest. 

A hand railing is never meant to be a sitting area.  Never.  Even if there was actually glass in front of the railing what he did was irresponsible and exposed the child to danger.   In some states that is child endangerment.  

Why a child banging on glass is a good thing that should be encouraged is another matter altogether.   

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"Chloe was playing with her grandfather in a dining hall that had large windows, and one pane was open.

Last month, Anello told "CBS This Morning" he picked Chloe up and put her on a railing to look out a bank of windows before the girl fell to her death.

He held her in a hug, he said, as she was on the railing. But he then let one arm go as he and his granddaughter both reached out to knock on the glass, as they had done at hockey games."

The above quote is from the article in the South Bend Tribune. At least we're getting closer to the truth!

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3 hours ago, tiny blonde said:

"Chloe was playing with her grandfather in a dining hall that had large windows, and one pane was open.

Last month, Anello told "CBS This Morning" he picked Chloe up and put her on a railing to look out a bank of windows before the girl fell to her death.

He held her in a hug, he said, as she was on the railing. But he then let one arm go as he and his granddaughter both reached out to knock on the glass, as they had done at hockey games."

The above quote is from the article in the South Bend Tribune. At least we're getting closer to the truth!

Interesting as they move closer to filing their case they are softening the statements.  Technically it's not a dining area.  Dining service isn't offered on the pool deck. 

Guests are free to take food from a buffet almost anywhere on the ship including the pool deck, but that doesn't mean the entire ship is a dining area.  If you take a plate of food to your balcony cabin does that make your balcony a dining area?  If you take food into the library does make the library a dining area?

Subtle change from the totally false claims of a "kids play area"  yet still inaccurate.  I get it, they are grasping at ways to suggest windows don't belong there.  

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Other quotes from the article on the lawyer's statements (highlights mine):

According to Michael Winkleman, an attorney for the Wiegand family, the purpose of the news conference is “to continue to raise awareness about window fall dangers and to honor Chloe’s memory by fighting for justice.”

The lawsuit will be a wrongful death case against the cruise line for “the failure to have windows that are compliant with the well-established window fall prevention codes,” Winkleman said in a statement.

“This was a tragic accident that was preventable. This is a hidden danger,” Winkleman said in July, blaming the cruise line for having windows that could open in a child’s play area.

 

This lawyer is really fixated on the windows.  I wonder how this will change designs and configurations for windows on cruise ships.  I hate it when people's irresponsible (and criminal) actions negatively impact the lives of others - A shoe bomber tries to board a flight, we now have to take off our shoes at airports;  guests cheat on the drink packages, all adults in the stateroom now have to buy the package.  Now this... 

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I read on Daily Mail today they will be submitting their lawsuit today against RCL.  Supposedly Daily Mail was one of the news outlets that got an exclusive from the attorney.  I hope they read the comments.  Overall, everyone is against the family and for RCL.  I mean in the comments it is running hundreds for RCL for every few for the parents.

It might be a reason they did exclusives, because before submitting their lawsuit they want to see how this is playing out via social media.  For them, not so well.  

The majority of people are saying, the railing is there for a reason, and even through the pics, you can see that the child play area is not close, plus with the slant of the windows, that a normal person would say ,,,,hmmm before hoisting a toddler up.

JMPO, it would be hard for them to find a jury that will find RCL at fault.  That being stated, I still believe RCL will settle out of court with an NDA.

 

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35 minutes ago, PG Cruiser said:

The TODAY Show is at it again this morning.  Their narrative is still about the ONE OPEN WINDOW in the KID'S PLAY AREA.

It generates revenue.  TV shows are all about ratings which help them sign up advertisers.  Facts don't matter, ratings do. 

Keep this mind for anything else you hear about on the Today show... it's all fake news.

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I signed up here just to comment on this story as the more I read it, the more my blood boils. I have been on three Royal cruises and have my fourth booked for next year. Also, when I was recently on Anthem, I’m guessing no one had a problem seeing the open pool deck window because no adult or child fell off the ship. 

Honestly at this point I question the fanily’s motives and what type of people and parents they really are. Why do they seem to have no problem with the fact that the baby was put on a railing so high up when there were many safer ways to play with her or look out the window? Were the parents already off drinking and too preoccupied to care? Why, instead of grieving privately and getting counseling and trying to keep their family together, do they keep appearing on TV news and at press conferences? Why is their hand out for money from Royal Caribbean when Grandpa is the one who held the baby up and lost his grip? 

Do I believe Grandpa intended to harm the baby? Of course not. But everyone in this family has very questionable judgment. The mom is a lawyer and can’t see a this is a fruitless lawsuit? 

I think this family needs to step off and drop their lawsuit and get out of the spotlight. They’re not helping themselves. And don’t get me started on the “But it’s so HEARTLESS and MEAN to not understand the family’s SUFFERING!” opinion of so much of the public. Think critically and don’t just believe everything the media, the family, and their lawyer tell you. 

I also majored in journalism and used to work at a law firm. So I know all about the Today show wanting ratings and finding the best stories possible. And while my former firm was much smaller time and didn’t really take cases of this magnitude, there was definitely talk about clients who needed to take responsibility for themselves at some point.

 

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This morning today show finally said "near child's play area".  Also when questioned after the reporter viewed the video with the attorney (not released to public and probably never will be), the attorney said grandfather first leaned over the railing and looked out, then he picked up Chloe and set her on the railing. 

Now I find it very hard to believe that he was unable to tell the window was opening.  From my perspective the more they talk the weaker there case appears.

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22 minutes ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

I signed up here just to comment on this story as the more I read it, the more my blood boils.

I'm with you on the blood boiling... I'm trying so hard not to throw things at my TV. ?

In the article, the South Bend Police Department seems to be giving their all out support for this family, even initially letting them use the police facilities for the press conference until they were called out on it.

"The news conference was originally scheduled to take place at the South Bend Police Department, but was changed to the FOP Lodge after a Tribune reporter asked a family spokeswoman why the event was taking place on city property."

I'm all for supporting a grieving family but the South Bend Police Department should be careful not to involve themselves in a frivolous lawsuit such as this.

 

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1 hour ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

I think this family needs to step off and drop their lawsuit and get out of the spotlight. They’re not helping themselves. And don’t get me started on the “But it’s so HEARTLESS and MEAN to not understand the family’s SUFFERING!” opinion of so much of the public. Think critically and don’t just believe everything the media, the family, and their lawyer tell you. 

I totally blame the lawyer for all this hoopla. I believe it was he who saw an opportunity to sue RCCL and cooked up the story and talked the family into going along with it. I believe the family is so distraught by what happened and distracted by the media that they can't think straight. They're just going along with the lawyer, in my opinion, and he is just trying to (please excuse the expression) "make a killing."

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4 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

I totally blame the lawyer for all this hoopla

I blame the media. Kids die on land in towns around the USA for a variety of reasons, but the media has picked up on this story and kept it running for months now.

As @twangster said, this is about ratings. The best thing you can all do is not to click/watch stories about this. 

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37 minutes ago, tiny blonde said:

I totally blame the lawyer for all this hoopla. I believe it was he who saw an opportunity to sue RCCL and cooked up the story and talked the family into going along with it. I believe the family is so distraught by what happened and distracted by the media that they can't think straight. They're just going along with the lawyer, in my opinion, and he is just trying to (please excuse the expression) "make a killing."

The family can only play dumb and go along blindly with the lawyer for so long though. I’m sure their grief is overbearing but it’s been several months. At some point, how has no one else around them tried to encourage them to seek privacy and drop the lawsuit and media circus? They aren’t dragged to the Today show kicking and screaming. 

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1 hour ago, WoodsCommaElle said:

I’m sure their grief is overbearing but it’s been several months. At some point, how has no one else around them tried to encourage them to seek privacy and drop the lawsuit and media circus? They aren’t dragged to the Today show kicking and screaming. 

"Several months" is nothing when your child has been killed. Try living with it for years. Decades. Various media kept interviewing me for years afterward, and I never turned them down, nor did anyone try to talk me out of being interviewed. In fact, I told an interested group of people about it just yesterday. If people want to know, if they ask me, I tell them, because my pain needs to be understood.

But I tell them only if they ask, I don't go around telling people "my daughter was killed" anymore, although for the first year, while I was trying to come to grips with it, I did volunteer the information, to explain why I was so emotionally absent. I was walking around in a daze, confused, traumatized, and I felt I needed to offer an explanation for my helplessness, so I told people.

I can't blame the parents of the dead child. They are the victims . . .. of the grandfather's negligence, and the lawyer's greed . . . . and they are still reeling, and will be for a long time. The lawyer is the only person who is milking this for all it's worth, because he stands to make a third of at least a million dollars and probably more. My guess is that RCCL will settle for some number easily divisible by 3 (like $3,000,000) and the lawyer will deduct his expenses from the parents' share and then gleefully pocket a million for himself, and then go looking for someone else to shove in front of the nation.

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