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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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I took several RC cruises and no children fell out the windows. The window have green/blue tint and are not perfectly clean so baby Chloe grandpa should be easily able to identify closed and open windows as they are clearly identified even on the photos taken on the day of the accident. Was the grandpa drunk, overmedicated and medically impaired on the day of the accident? Normally, we do not have problem to identify open window at our house, work place or any place else. It appears that the grandpa was negligent placing 18 months baby on the window ledge at least his waist height. The 18 months baby is still wobbly can get injured falling inside the room and hitting her head on the table or chair. Unfortunately, she fell outside and the grandpa for unknown reasons could not grab her in time.

I am terribly sorry for her untimely death, but it seems to be a case of the grandpa negligence more than the Royal Caribbean fault. It is a responsibility of the child guardian to make secure his child. There are windows from floor to the ceiling in the Windjammer Café and solarium deck. They are closed on the child/adult level as far as I am concerned. However, some ships have Windjammer Café area window open for cruisers willing to dine al fresco. Again, Royal Caribbean tries to satisfy all cruisers and asks the cruisers to exercise caution to avoid accidents. Keeping eyes shut is not a good method, right?

Above all, I am appalled on the family shifting rapidly to capitalize on the girl' death. And as a prior cruiser, generally I am pleased with the services  RC provides. I am also concerned with the reckless cruisers climbing the walls and suing the RC which in the end will result in RC rising the cruise price for all of us. Let the baby Chloe rest in piece and let us nto allow greedy parents to capitalize on her death. The grandpa screwed up big way!

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Terrible tragedy that was completely avoidable.  I've sailed a number of ships since and everytime I see an open window on the pool deck I still ask myself how could he not have known?

I can only speculate that the swift moving lawsuit and attorney's actions were an attempt to deflect blame and persuade local authorities from reaching this conclusion.   In doing so they tarnished a great company's name and image and cost them significantly.

A precious life lost that no arrest or homicide case can ever correct.  At the end of the day it's a guilt he'll have to take with him to the grave regardless how the case proceeds.

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4 minutes ago, Jmccaffrey said:

I am sad for the Family but this grandfather is at fault. I am happy that he was charged because he need to take responsibility. 


WOW!!!! They charged him with NEGLIGENT HOMOCIDE?!?!?  Yes, he was at fault, but that seems like way too much of an overcharge.  Involuntary Manslaughter would have been more appropriate if they really wanted to charge him with something. 
 


 

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4 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:


WOW!!!! They charged him with NEGLIGENT HOMOCIDE?!?!?  Yes, he was at fault, but that seems like way too much of an overcharge.  Involuntary Manslaughter would have been more appropriate if they really wanted to charge him with something. 
 


 

No they charged him with negligent manslaughter which seems appropriate. 

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3 minutes ago, ChrisK2793 said:


WOW!!!! They charged him with NEGLIGENT HOMOCIDE?!?!?  Yes, he was at fault, but that seems like way too much of an overcharge.  Involuntary Manslaughter would have been more appropriate if they really wanted to charge him with something. 
 


 

I think that involuntary manslaughter would have been if she had climbed up and fallen to her death while he wasn't looking. But in this case HE LIFTED HER to the window AND let go of her! If he had wanted to kill her, that was a guaranteed way to do it. But the other side of this is that it will be easier to get a jury to acquit him of the charge, because it wasn't his intention (as far as we know) to kill her. The trial is going to be a mess of accusations, unless they settle and he agrees to serve time. It's a very interesting case from many points of view.

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5 minutes ago, CoupleOfCruisers said:

No they charged him with negligent manslaughter which seems appropriate. 


Are you sure?  The article that was linked above says negligent homocide and he was held on $80,000.00 bail which also seems excessive for a grieving grandfather.  It’s not like he’s going to run around murdering other people.

 

 

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He's been charged, that doesn't mean he'll be convicted.  A jury of his peers can very easily choose not to convict based on lack of intent and compassion for his grief.

The other thing these charges mean is that the family's lawsuit against Royal is not likely to go anywhere since the police are clearly placing the blame on the grandfather not the cruise line.

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If someone leaves their infant in a locked car and that child dies in the heat they will likely face charges.  They could be convicted or not.  If convicted they will face sentencing that can take into account the impact that has already occurred to everyone involved.  Some jurisdictions have minimum sentences and in some cases the court process can render a sentence deemed appropriate.  That could be a slap on wrist or incarceration.  

As parents our children are our responsibility.  Sometimes bad things happen that are out of our control.  That's not the case here.  When someone plays a role that results in death regardless if it's their own family or a stranger, it warrants a trial.  An investigator or district attorney should not solely be responsible to decide if that person has suffered enough or the level of guilt involved.  Sometimes a DA might decide there isn't enough evidence and a trial is not warranted.  That's not the case here.  No DA should become a judge and decide the extent of their suffering.  Let the court do that.

In this case he has refused to accept any responsibility.  "Not my fault, someone else left the window open".  That may have a played a factor in deciding to pursue charges since he apparently feels no guilt.  He claims no responsibility and refuses to accept he did anything wrong.  His family has taken the same position resulting in the lawsuit against the company.

If nothing else perhaps the trial will wake them up to the fact that his actions resulted in a loss of life.  

He needs to realize he did this, not the person who opened the window and not the company because they have windows.  

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44 minutes ago, CoupleOfCruisers said:

Yeah I see that, the articles I read called it manslaughter. So honestly I don’t know unless it’s considered the same! 

From NBCNY: 

"Puerto Rico's Justice Department said in a statement that it charged Anello with negligent manslaughter. San Juan Investigations Chamber judge Jimmy Sepúlveda determined cause for the arrest and set bond at $80,000, the Justice Department added. A hearing has been scheduled for Nov. 20."

So, not homicide. Negligent manslaughter sounds about right.

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4 minutes ago, twangster said:

In this case he has refused to accept any responsibility.  "Not my fault, someone else left the window open".  That may have a played a factor in deciding to pursue charges since he apparently feels no guilt.  He claims no responsibility and refuses to accept he did anything wrong.  His family has taken the same position resulting in the lawsuit against the company.

If nothing else perhaps the trial will wake them up to the fact that his actions resulted in a loss of life.  

I agree.  The lawyer making press releases a few days after the tragedy and the parents appearing on the Today show pushing the narrative about the "window in the children's play area", which was "not distinguishable whether is was open or closed" for a grandfather who only wanted to give his granddaughter the chance to "bang the glass" which she loved to "do at hockey games" opened them to more scrutiny.  

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Sorry, but as a grandparent of a 3 and 1 yr old, my heart breaks with this story.

If I was being brutally honest, there probably would have been 2 deaths that night bc if my grandbaby fell out of my arms, you can bet I would have thrown my body out the window with the hopes that she would land on my body and survive.  I could physically and emotionally not be able to live with myself otherwise,

I am not passing judgement on the grandfather, I am just saying that there is no sentence any jury can hand down to him that is worse than the living hell he must endure everyday of his life from the minute he opens his eyes to the minute he closes them.

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36 minutes ago, F1guynz said:

The families lawyer has done a good job with the media as they keep referring to a "Wall of windows" and "childrens play area"

The accident location is near an area for children but is not actually a childrens play area, 

 

To clarify, the area is an area where all passengers can sit.  It is not an area "for children", but an area where families with or without children can be present.  Sometimes people bring food from the Windjammer to sit there.  Sometimes people sit there to escape the sun around the pool.  Sometimes people read a book there. Sometimes those people have children, sometimes they don't.  It's a public area open to everyone.  

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

Not clear.  He could have been arrested locally at home pending extradition to PR.

He was here in Puerto Rico. The news show him when he was took out of the court with his lawyer.

4 hours ago, CoupleOfCruisers said:

No they charged him with negligent manslaughter which seems appropriate. 

From the dictionary.

Negligent homicide, also called wrongful or involuntary manslaughter, is a crime that involves killing a natural person through negligent action.

Example from the dictionary,

When an action is carried out which the possible result of death is known and nevertheless it is believed that it can be avoided, but it fails and it occurs.

 

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NBC is still pushing back on the ship's negligence based on the family's lawyer's statement.  The TODAY show was quoting the family as saying, "Royal Caribbean could have prevented the accident by taking additional safety precautions."

For those of us who have sailed on Royal Caribbean ships, what ADDITIONAL safety precautions could the company have take in this situation?  Do we want (more) signage on every open ledge, window, and balcony?  Do we want barriers to those areas? Do we want kids banned from those areas?

 

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I'm think that the charge is justified, although I can't say I'm happy about it. I'm not happy because it is the outcome of a tragic situation where there are no winners. Grandpa's lifetime guilt is a far worse penalty than any court case may place upon him. The only positive thing, if any, is that RCCL may be absolved of any negligence involving the "open" windows and may head off any further frivolous lawsuits and may help somebody think twice before doing something so stupid and dangerous again. That may be a stretch though because people are going to continue to do stupid things, and when they go terrible wrong like in this case, they will look for a scape goat instead of taking responsibilities for their poor judgement and actions.

My continued prayers go out to the family including Grandpa. He might need it the most.

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11 hours ago, Pima1988 said:

Sorry, but as a grandparent of a 3 and 1 yr old, my heart breaks with this story.

If I was being brutally honest, there probably would have been 2 deaths that night bc if my grandbaby fell out of my arms, you can bet I would have thrown my body out the window with the hopes that she would land on my body and survive.  I could physically and emotionally not be able to live with myself otherwise,

I am not passing judgement on the grandfather, I am just saying that there is no sentence any jury can hand down to him that is worse than the living hell he must endure everyday of his life from the minute he opens his eyes to the minute he closes them.

well said. 

 

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I just read that the grandfather and his attorney flew to Puerto Rico earlier this week and that they will be flying back to the states to wait until he has to go back to Puerto Rico in 3 weeks.

To me that makes me wonder if they are going to do a plea deal.  According to the article I read in PR this is considered a misdemeanor and he could get 3 yrs jail time.

The article also stated that since it is now a criminal case his defense attorneys will finally be able to see the CCTV footage of the accident.  The civil attorneys suing RCL had yet to see the footage bc it was confiscated as part of the criminal case.  I wonder how the attorney for their civil case will base their lawsuit once they see it.

I feel for the parents, but I do think they are wrong suing RCL.  Their opinion of this was inexcusable and RCL could have placed screens is wrong impo.  Let's assume that there was a screen, to me that would have made RCL more negligent, not less.   It would have been harder to see that the window was indeed open, and additionally give the false illusion that the screen is a safety feature.  My DS with perfect vision 1 time walked through the screen door (sliding) because we were eating on the deck at night and the person right b4 him closed it a few seconds earlier, he did not realize the screen was there.  So that idea is really not a valid option as far as I can see.

We boarded Adventure 2 or 3 days after this accident.  Everytime I went to smoke, this accident was the topic among every passenger.  Granted it was the smoking side, but the non-smoking side is set up identical.  There are tables and chairs, and it is by the area where you enter/exit for the WJ.  The five things that everyone agreed upon were:

  1.  There has always been multiple signs on stands every few feet that clearly state: DO NOT STAND ON RAILING.  I would guess it is every 10 feet or so.  
  2.  The design of the railing and windows make it difficult for a toddler even if they are lifted up to pound on the glass.  The windows slant out, and even as an adult of medium height you would have to been over the railing to open the glass.    IOWS Grandpa had to really lean over for her to hit the glass.
  3.  RCL tints the glass so you can tell the difference.  Even if the grandfather has vision issues or their 1st cruise,  the screen would make it worse from a safety aspect.  They should have also been able to also feel either the heat/humidity or breeze where they were standing and that should have been the WAIT A SECOND MOMENT
  4.  As much as the family's attorney plays out in the media that it is next to the kids area, it isn't a 10 second walk.  It is a planned walk over there where you have to navigate to a window around tables.  This is where most of us wondered about the CCTV.  Could he have just sat down at the table next to window, and allow her to bang on the bottom windows?  Did any other passengers tell him that he should not place her on the railing?  Probably not regarding other passengers, bc with society today most people are afraid of offending others regarding what that person does with their kids.  See something, say something is uncommon, unless you are like this Jersey girl.  I would have said, the sign says do not stand on railing.  Than again, when I said that on Adventure, it sailed out of Bayonne, so everybody were Jersey/NY people and have no problem saying something
  5.  At that point it was just the beginning of the criminal investigation, and most people felt that the family would say PR needing cruise ships for tourism would err o the side of the cruise line and charge him.  I am waiting for their civilian attorney to throw this in the media.  IE This is an avg family, Chloe's Dad is a police officer in Indiana, unlike Royal, Puerto Rico will not make millions every yr in tourism from his family or friends.  Placing that seed of PR charging and finding the grandfather guilty because of the almighty dollar.

I will say, yes we had a great cruise, but it had that loom of grey clouds because of the accident.  Everywhere you went you could overhear people talking about the tragedy.  That included my own group (3 cabins).  I finally turned and said on the 2nd night at dinner....ENOUGH, we are not going to discuss this anymore, everybody agreed and we moved onto something more light hearted.  The next night, my BIL brought up at dinner how this was being talked about in the gym when he was working...other family members started to re-hash it again, I again said NO, move on to a new topic or I am leaving the table.   Went to Boleros for pre-dinner cocktails and the table next to us was discussing this, which again started the conversation at our table where I would in turn say KNOCk IT OFF.  In essence, on that cruise everywhere you turned passengers were discussing it.  I will say that although they felt for the family, that they disagreed with their attorney and their premise that RCL was negligent after they saw the ship.  

JMPO, but all Royal has to do is have the civilian jury walk on the deck.  Show that there were signs that night, and them using common sense would find in favor of RCL.  However, the cynic in me will say RCL will pay a 7 figure sum to the family, and require them to sign an NDA.  

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4 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

NBC is still pushing back on the ship's negligence based on the family's lawyer's statement.  The TODAY show was quoting the family as saying, "Royal Caribbean could have prevented the accident by taking additional safety precautions."

Really, what the today show should be doing is broadcasting a public apology to Royal Caribbean, for allowing someone on their show to voice obviously unfounded accusations.

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16 hours ago, ChrisK2793 said:


WOW!!!! They charged him with NEGLIGENT HOMOCIDE?!?!?  Yes, he was at fault, but that seems like way too much of an overcharge.  Involuntary Manslaughter would have been more appropriate if they really wanted to charge him with something. 
 


 

Iv'e read in some of the articles that the young girl had serious health issues at birth.  Could there be more to the story than has been made public?  Could there have been continuing health issues and possibly this wasn't an accident after all?  As has been stated before, it's almost impossible to understand how the grandfather didn't know the window, where he placed the girl on the ledge or through, was open.  Perhaps the significant charges are indicative that this wasn't the accident we've been led to believe it was.

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2 hours ago, FManke said:

That may be a stretch though because people are going to continue to do stupid things,

I know it was over the summer, but I can't remember which cruise line (Carnival or NCL) where a kid jumped off his balcony and survived.  Granted he is now banned for the rest of his life from sailing on any cruise ship, but even after he did it, his thing was I hurt my leg, but otherwise I am good.  The thought that he could have died never came across his mind.

I am waiting for parents to sue regarding a different aspect.

On our last cruise it was midnight.  I decided to go down to get a slice of pizza.  I entered the elevator with 2 girls.  I asked how old they were....8 and 10.  They too were getting pizza.  They were happy to talk to me, no cell phones on them (shocker right?).   I said do your folks know you are doing this?  NOPE.  Our folks got 2 cabins, not adjoining, but next door.  We all know that RCL would make each parent to be assigned to a different cabin for the booking, but once on board the parents can do exactly what these girls parents did...Mom and Dad in 1 cabin, and the kids next door.   They basically snuck out of their cabin.

To me I would find RCL at fault if something happened to these girls.  I could have over powered those girls, especially if I was a guy.  Chances are those girls knowing they snuck out without the folks knowing would not say squat to the parents the next a.m.   On top of that there were 4311 passengers on the ship, add in staff and even if they gave a description of the attacker it would be hard to find.  

 

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15 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

I agree.  The lawyer making press releases a few days after the tragedy and the parents appearing on the Today show pushing the narrative about the "window in the children's play area", which was "not distinguishable whether is was open or closed" for a grandfather who only wanted to give his granddaughter the chance to "bang the glass" which she loved to "do at hockey games" opened them to more scrutiny.  

Sounds a little fishy, the picture of her banging on glass at the hockey game has her "standing on the ground" banging the glass, on Freedom, the glass on the pool deck goes all the way to the ground so why could she have not stood on the ground and bang on the glass there as well?  Why did the grandfather lift her up and place her on the ledge or through an open window before letting go?  How can she bang on an open window?  Very fishy!

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12 minutes ago, FManke said:

What implications on the civil lawsuit, if any, are affected by the charges against the grandfather?

A lot!

A civil lawsuit is different than a criminal case.  Basically it does not have to be unaminous, just majority.

Could you really sit as a juror and find for the parents knowing that the grandfather was convicted, or at the very least pleaded to a lesser charge.  In essence the grandfather admitted some level of guilt in the accident.

I still stand by my opinion.  RCL will pay a 7 figure sum to the family and make them sign an NDA.  

This might sound horrible, but I bet their civil attorney has told them that the out of court settlement has now dropped due to the criminal case, and unless they can find something amazing in the CCTV,  they probably need to accept RCLs offer now.  It kind of reminds me of that TV show Deal or No Deal. once that million dollar case is off the table, the value goes down regarding their offer.  That is what they are looking at now.

Even worse, financially for this family it has to be costing them a lot.  Flying back and forth to PR.  Finding and paying for a criminal attorney licensed in PR.  Posting that 80K bond, even if it means only 10% or 8K that is still money they have to find.

 

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6 minutes ago, Jjohnb said:

Sounds a little fishy, the picture of her banging on glass at the hockey game has her "standing on the ground" banging the glass, on Freedom, the glass on the pool deck goes all the way to the ground so why could she have not stood on the ground and bang on the glass there as well?  Why did the grandfather lift her up and place her on the ledge or through an open window before letting go?  How can she bang on an open window?  Very fishy!

Believe me, I want to book a cruise on the Freedom just to do an "amateur investigation" on this incident.  I want to take the lawyer's statements on media and the parents' statements on NBC and refute all of them in a video.

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Just now, Pima1988 said:

A lot!

A civil lawsuit is different than a criminal case.  Basically it does not have to be unaminous, just majority.

Could you really sit as a juror and find for the parents knowing that the grandfather was convicted, or at the very least pleaded to a lesser charge.  In essence the grandfather admitted some level of guilt in the accident.

I still stand by my opinion.  RCL will pay a 7 figure sum to the family and make them sign an NDA.  

This might sound horrible, but I bet their civil attorney has told them that the out of court settlement has now dropped due to the criminal case, and unless they can find something amazing in the CCTV,  they probably need to accept RCLs offer now.  It kind of reminds me of that TV show Deal or No Deal. once that million dollar case is off the table, the value goes down regarding their offer.  That is what they are looking at now.

Even worse, financially for this family it has to be costing them a lot.  Flying back and forth to PR.  Finding and paying for a criminal attorney licensed in PR.  Posting that 80K bond, even if it means only 10% or 8K that is still money they have to find.

 

I do not like Royal to settle.  It will only encourage more stupid and risky behavior among thrill-seeking cruisers.

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5 hours ago, PG Cruiser said:

NBC is still pushing back on the ship's negligence based on the family's lawyer's statement.  The TODAY show was quoting the family as saying, "Royal Caribbean could have prevented the accident by taking additional safety precautions."

For those of us who have sailed on Royal Caribbean ships, what ADDITIONAL safety precautions could the company have take in this situation?  Do we want (more) signage on every open ledge, window, and balcony?  Do we want barriers to those areas? Do we want kids banned from those areas?

 

Nothing. You cannot safeguard against a momentary lack of judgment. On my last cruise, standing in the elevator an elderly gentleman (grandpa) used the stroller to stop the door from closing. Another gentleman inside the elevator spoke up - "it's not worth it, that was stupid" and a bit more. The man half acknowledged the error, mainly of making light of the situation (it was awkward all around) saying "yeah my daughter would kill me if anything happened to her..." The confronting gentleman repeated himself and spoke of this story. At the time it was awkward how much the confronting man was sort of drilling him. However, thinking back, sometimes you need to drill things into people's heads. It was a momentary lack of judgment that could have been a disaster if the safety mechanism failed. I bet he never does anything like that again - or any of us in the elevator for that matter - also makes me wonder, maybe we all need to speak up more when seeing stuff like this. Maybe someone (if a witness was present, no idea) speaking up could have saved her life.

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25 minutes ago, sk8erguy1978 said:

also makes me wonder, maybe we all need to speak up more when seeing stuff like this.

I think we all do need to speak up more.  However society has become so PC impo that we live in fear of offending someone.

I do speak up when I see something, but I believe it is not only the Jersey in me, but I was a teacher and I have grandkids.  I am at an age that I have thick skin.  My DH otoh shutters when I do this.  He is from NJ too, but not confrontational.  I just look at him when he says something me after the fact and say...I will never see them again, and maybe, just maybe I made them think again before they do that another time.  

I don't watch the show, I have only seen the previews...it is on ABC, can't recall the actual name, but the premise is what would you do if you saw.... occurring?  They do things in a public space, and the scenarios range from seeing an employee stealing to verbal abuse and bullying.

 

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2 hours ago, CruiseGus said:

Really, what the today show should be doing is broadcasting a public apology to Royal Caribbean, for allowing someone on their show to voice obviously unfounded accusations.

That doesn't generate ratings.  Sensationalizing and hyping EVERYTHING generates revenue for the media.   

The media has stopped simply reporting the news long ago  Now they contribute to news events and decide which ones to leverage to maximize revenue.

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43 minutes ago, Pima1988 said:

I think we all do need to speak up more.  However society has become so PC impo that we live in fear of offending someone.

I do speak up when I see something, but I believe it is not only the Jersey in me, but I was a teacher and I have grandkids.  I am at an age that I have thick skin.  My DH otoh shutters when I do this.  He is from NJ too, but not confrontational.  I just look at him when he says something me after the fact and say...I will never see them again, and maybe, just maybe I made them think again before they do that another time.  

I don't watch the show, I have only seen the previews...it is on ABC, can't recall the actual name, but the premise is what would you do if you saw.... occurring?  They do things in a public space, and the scenarios range from seeing an employee stealing to verbal abuse and bullying.

 

This person claimed to be law enforcement (think retired), the way he spoke I believed him. That's probably why he had not issues speaking up, and drilling the guy a bit, it's what he did for a living!

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I see the family is upset about the charges maintaining it was not their fault and that it is exclusively Royal's fault.  

It appears they will accept zero responsibility for the death.

Previously they have hinted that who ever opened the window is at fault.  

Who here has ever opened one of these windows?

What if you opened this windows 3 months prior and it remained open all this time, then you discover they are suing you for killing their daughter?

"Not my fault, someone else is to blame"

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