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Who would ever let go of your child, even if there was no glass there?


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So, I was googling and couldn't find any evidence of similar incidents on cruise ships. I did find several similar incidents in zoos. Parents picked up a child to give them a better view of the animals and the child slipped, squirmed or otherwise fell into the enclosure and was injured or killed. In most cases, the zoo was not held liable since the adult in the situation was deemed equally or largely at fault by circumventing the safety precautions.

There are two circumstances I found that increased the zoos liability. 1) the incident occurred under supervision of zoo employees. 2) The zoo was aware of parents "dangling" their children, had discussed it and failed to act on that information.

While not a perfect example, the zoo incidents are close enough to extrapolate probable arguments. The cruise line will argue that having windows that open are standard on most cruise ships and the grandfather acted in a negligent manner by lifting the child up to rest on the railing. The grandfather's actions were a more significant factor to the accident than the design of the window.

The parent's case will likely hinge on whether there was significant discussion by RCCL of the possibility of this type of incident happening and whether the cruise line had previous reports of similar behavior. If this could be proven through discovery, then the parents stand a chance of prevailing in their action.

Regardless, I think the overall outcome will be for signs on railing and windows indicating the danger will be added, but the functionality of the windows will remain. This is how the zoos have handled this in the past.

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Here is a better solution:

Eliminate the the health questionnaire before each cruise and have an intelligence test.

The test will be a salesman sample of a window. The gate agent take take each potential passenger and ask them "Is this window open, or, is it closed?" One answer only. About 3 seconds to respond. 

 

To be honest, if someone is not bright enough to know whether a window is open or closed, I really don't want to be sharing the ship with them for a week. It's my vacation too.

 

As a loyal passenger this is very upsetting and has turned to insulting. As a guy who played hockey for 20 some years--it's really disturbing that poor fan etiquette is taught at such a young age. UGGG!!! <tears out a handful of hair from scalp>

 

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On 7/25/2019 at 9:12 AM, twangster said:

There is no requirement to file a suit against someone.  It was a tragic accident and the grandfather is at fault.  The outcome is something they will all have to live with somehow.  What they should do is begin to move on without suing anyone.

I'm wondering if they played their cards too soon.  At this point the damage they've done by spreading falsehoods and outlandish claims is done.  There is no taking that back.  The only reason for Royal to settle would be the cost of on-going litigation and the fear of losing should it go to trial.  The lawyer moved very quickly and went public so fast, followed soon after with the national news interview.   In doing so he may have damaged the opportunity for a settlement.  What's next for him?  Trying for another interview on another news outlet? 

They've played most of their cards and no settlement so far.  Settling now has the appearance of an admission of guilt.  

The only reasoning that I can think of for this is that people don't generally act rationally while grieving. On top of what's a pretty tragic situation between family members, they're grieving their child and grandchild. 

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1 hour ago, KLA said:

The only reasoning that I can think of for this is that people don't generally act rationally while grieving. On top of what's a pretty tragic situation between family members, they're grieving their child and grandchild. 

Yeah, particularly when you have a sleazy lawyer whispering in your ear 5 seconds after it happened, "....this is not your fault.  I can get Royal Caribbean pay you a LOT of money.  This is THEIR fault..."

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13 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

Yeah, particularly when you have a sleazy lawyer whispering in your ear 5 seconds after it happened, "....this is not your fault.  I can get Royal Caribbean pay you a LOT of money.  This is THEIR fault..."

Absolutely. 100%. I can't imagine what that family is going through right now.

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2 hours ago, bobroo said:

As a loyal passenger this is very upsetting and has turned to insulting. As a guy who played hockey for 20 some years--it's really disturbing that poor fan etiquette is taught at such a young age. UGGG!!! <tears out a handful of hair from scalp>

Thanks for your input! Having lived in Florida my entire life, I have to admit I'm not very educated on fan etiquette at Hockey games. However, I was wondering if banging on the glass was a "normal" and acceptable thing to do at games. Although it is probably Plexiglas,  it still seems rather unsafe especially for a young child, not to mention (as I just learned) rude. 

I have appreciated everyone's posts and agree - how do you not know a window is open???  What happened to the child is horrible and I understand that the family is grieving (What that mom saw when she went over to the window and looked down - ugh, makes my heart ache), but blaming RCCL because Grandpa didn't know the window was open is insulting!

 It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

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I just came off of a cruise.  The window issue to me is BS.

The parents are saying it was by the childrens splash area.  Anyone that has cruised Royal knows the splash zones are next to the adult pools.  It is not 5 or 10 feet.  It is rows of loungers, than a walkway, than chairs or loungers before you get to the windows.  

I have a very rambunctious 2 1/2 yr old grandbaby and even at 55 with a hip replacement I can beat her everyday and 2x on sunday.

That is before we even talk about how high the handrail is.  I am 5'5 that hand rail hit me at my belly button.  On top of that look at the pictures.  I was on Adventure. and the windows looked the same.  The windows above the handrails tilt out from the top to bottom.  Probably a 45 degree angle with the bottom closest to the hand railing.  They are not straight windows like in your home.  However, those hand rails must be 2 feet from the closest opening at the bottom.  If I was on the jury there is no way I could say that RCL was negligent.  They designed those windows and rails to minimize the risk.

Freedom was the talk of the cruise.  Many passengers were looking to see design flaws/negligence.  Most agreed that negligence for RCL was on the decks when you were walking around outside, or that it was more likely a kid would slip on their marble staircases, etc.

My heart breaks for this family.  I don't know how they will make it through this pain.  No money will be a salve to their hurt.  

My kids want to do a cruise on Disney with the little ones.  We were adamant before this tragedy and more so now.  No cruise until they understand the risks. 

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They keep defending the grandfather by equating this to the little girl's enjoyment of banging on the hockey glass at her brother's games.  Can you imagine how that makes the brother feel?  He's only 10, only a few years older than 7 when most kids start to lose their egocentric thinking that everything in the world happens for and because of them. (Some people never outgrow that, but that's another topic.)  Everytime he hears about the hockey glass, he probably feels guilt about playing hockey.  Do you think he'll ever enjoy playing that again?  In the Today Show interview, the mom said her son is torn up, feeling guilty about not being there when she fell, because if he had been, he would have jumped out the window to catch her.  Totally irrational thought, but that's normal for young kids.  Everything is internalized. 

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13 minutes ago, Brobbins246 said:

They keep defending the grandfather by equating this to the little girl's enjoyment of banging on the hockey glass at her brother's games.  Can you imagine how that makes the brother feel?  He's only 10, only a few years older than 7 when most kids start to lose their egocentric thinking that everything in the world happens for and because of them. (Some people never outgrow that, but that's another topic.)  Everytime he hears about the hockey glass, he probably feels guilt about playing hockey.  Do you think he'll ever enjoy playing that again?  In the Today Show interview, the mom said her son is torn up, feeling guilty about not being there when she fell, because if he had been, he would have jumped out the window to catch her.  Totally irrational thought, but that's normal for young kids.  Everything is internalized. 

Seems like they are providing evidence against their case.

The picture they shared at the hockey rink has the girl standing on the floor leaning on the glass.  Freedom has glass starting at the floor.  Standing on her feet she could lean on the glass and look out.  There was no need to lift her to the railing.  

Some hockey rinks have wooden boards starting at the floor going to waist level then glass above the boards.  Freedom isn't like that.  There was no need for Grandpa to pick her up in the first place, unless... she wanted to look out the window.  

It seems the little boy knew it was a window if he offered that he would jump out the window after her.  Only Grandpa supposedly didn't know there was a window.  I don't buy it.  She wanted to look out the window instead of the dirty glass.  Grandpa lifted her up and lost his grip.  That's what the investigators reported in the first hours after it occurred.  They talked with him.  They drew their conclusion from their initial review.  Hours later after they lawyered up the story changed.

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2 hours ago, D_Hubb said:

Thanks for your input! Having lived in Florida my entire life, I have to admit I'm not very educated on fan etiquette at Hockey games. However, I was wondering if banging on the glass was a "normal" and acceptable thing to do at games. Although it is probably Plexiglas,  it still seems rather unsafe especially for a young child, not to mention (as I just learned) rude. 

I have appreciated everyone's posts and agree - how do you not know a window is open???  What happened to the child is horrible and I understand that the family is grieving (What that mom saw when she went over to the window and looked down - ugh, makes my heart ache), but blaming RCCL because Grandpa didn't know the window was open is insulting!

 It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Due to people not taking responsibility for their own actions and bringing frivolous lawsuits forward such as this, next the cruise lines will be forced to install eight foot high Plexiglas behind the outdoor railings!   

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1 hour ago, Jjohnb said:

Due to people not taking responsibility for their own actions and bringing frivolous lawsuits forward such as this, next the cruise lines will be forced to install eight foot high Plexiglas behind the outdoor railings!   

Nobody is safe unless they enclose all Balconies and Open Decks...

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I’m still leaning towards the idea that he was holding her up so she could see out and she just wiggled loose and fell.  The whole “I didn’t know it was an open window” just isn’t believable.   It’s just a terrible, horrible, sickening accident. They happen every day.  But there is no way that this is the fault of the cruise line.  I hope they fight it.

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@Ray  That's the thing even 1st time cruisers cannot only see the different in the tinting, but you will feel the breeze come through even when at port.

I am with others that say she wiggled out of his arms, but still that does not alleviate the family from their culpability.    

I just wish they stop with the remark that it was right next to the kids play area.  For people that have never cruised I can see them thinking the play area would be 5 feet away, when in reality everybody that has cruised knows there were probably at least 2 rows of loungers, than the knee wall to the area where they were at that had tables.  I assume their point is that since the splash zone was on that side those windows should remain locked.

I don't believe anyone with a heart does not feel sympathy for the entire family.  However, anyone with a brain would have a hard time finding Royal negligent.  For them to win a case against RCL they would have to get all of the jurors to never have been on a cruise.  Even then it would still be hard when they show up close pics of how high the hand rail is, how far they are placed from the windows, how they are tinted and angle out.  

I would think the attorney knows this and his game plan is to keep RCL in the news in hopes that passengers will sail on another cruise line.  I would be really curious to see Disney's decks.  I am sure passenger ratio there are a lot more children on their ships.  That would be the only way I can see a win for them, that is, if Disney's pool deck windows never can open.

 

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I haven't been on Freedom either, but if you look at the pictures that were released with the police tape, you can see it has to be a good 15-20 feet since you cannot see the kids zone at all in the pic.  You can see that they had left the tables in that area where they were, and than an open area.  

The thing that struck me with that picture was the tables.  I want to say on all of the RCL ships I have been on, on the pool deck the only place there are tables is the smoking section.  The rest all have loungers.  Maybe on Freedom they have tables and not loungers by the windows.  However, if they don't than doesn't that whole in the H2O splash zone make no sense because they would have had to cross from the side the splash zone is located, pass the pool, pass the lounge chairs and walk into the smoking section.  

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3 hours ago, Pima1988 said:

@Ray  That's the thing even 1st time cruisers cannot only see the different in the tinting, but you will feel the breeze come through even when at port.

 

? i asked as it's the ONLY excuse their attorney hasn't used!! So i'm leaning to them having cruised previously so they would have know windows open in certain area's. And you are correct having cruised on FOTS out of San Juan last year i know how nice the breeze coming through an open window can be ? 

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4 minutes ago, Ray said:

? i asked as it's the ONLY excuse their attorney hasn't used!! So i'm leaning to them having cruised previously so they would have know windows open in certain area's. And you are correct having cruised on FOTS out of San Juan last year i know how nice the breeze coming through an open window can be ? 

The ship was tied up to a pier, in port, and there may not have been a breeze there, that day, coming from that direction. Which does not change the fact that an open window does not look the same as a closed, tinted window, which all the other windows were. He lifted the child and held her up to an open window over 100' above the ground.

My heart aches for them all.

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I want to add that I have friends who have never cruised, and they hear the parents on the news.   They seem to believe that the windows were child level, like the picture of the little girl banging on the hockey window, not up high and the open window was by the children's pool area.   I try to explain to them that the windows are not level with the deck, they are almost waist or chest high.  When I have shown them pictures they are shocked because of what they hear on the news, and they immediately see that the windows are open.   The lawyer and parents seem to be trying to convince those who have never cruised that the ship was at fault, and if listening to my friends is any indication, it is working.   I am sad the little girl died in this awful way, but angry that the parents and grandfather will not take responsibility for their actions, if they did, maybe they could teach parents to be more aware of how suddenly accidents can happen.   A friend's son-in-law drove over his daughter who was behind his car, she survived but was in the hospital recovering for weeks, he took full responsibility for his actions and told his friends over and over to always make sure your child is no where near the car, to not just take it for granted.    

 

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On 7/26/2019 at 1:22 PM, WAAAYTOOO said:

Yeah, particularly when you have a sleazy lawyer whispering in your ear 5 seconds after it happened, "....this is not your fault.  I can get Royal Caribbean pay you a LOT of money.  This is THEIR fault..."

I have a feeling the lawyer was trolling their social media accounts and found the picture of the girl at the hockey game. He then concocted the “banging on the glass” story before even meeting with them and the family immediately latched on to it. Not because they’re money-hungry but rather it’s the only thing that makes sense in their grief and can help them hang on. 

If everyone was so hysterical that they needed to be sedated after the incident - which is completely understandable - I highly doubt they knew exactly what the train of thought was in the moments leading up to the accident. So, yeah, I’m calling BS and blaming the lawyer for that one. 

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Here's my opinion:

I think it is completely unreasonable to blame RCI for this incident. Also, I really don't understand how the grandfather couldn't differentiate an open window to a closed one.

1. The windows are tinted; therefore it should be easy to see the open window

2. The breeze coming from the window

If the toddler fell out of the window, the grandfather must have let go of her. Even if the window was closed, she could fall from the railing on the floor if he let go of her.

"Anello said he took his granddaughter over to the windows because she loved banging on the glass at her brother's ice hockey games in Indiana"

Personally, I think this is a hasty excuse because in the picture she is facing towards the window, but on the cruise ship she had to have been facing away from the (open) window if the grandfather set her on the railing.

 

Kimberly Wiegand on TODAY: "We have a lot of questions, primarily, why is there an open window in the kids' play area 11 stories off the ground?"

Reporter: "Do you blame anyone? Do you blame the cruise company?"

Kimberly Wiegand: "Obviously we blame them. There are a million things that could have been done to make that safer. My mom was asking, why on earth is there an open window, you know, on the 11th floor, without a screen or anything? Their response was, we need ventilation. Well to that I would say get a fan." RCI has a bunch of fans...right here on royalcaribbeanblog.com! ? 

I apologize if you disagree with my ideas, but I just want to share my thoughts with this great community. ?

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2 hours ago, Zurc said:

We always remind the kids of our safety rules one last time before boarding.   If this family had done the same, Grandpa would have heard “no kids on railings, no leaning out windows, etc.”.   It may have made all the difference in the world. 

@Zurc Welcome to the RCB fourm!

I like your idea.  I do wonder how may of us would  take the time and make the effort to prepare for safety at home before leaving for a cruise trip.  But you are very right.  And, while it may be impossible to tell if advance safety preparation did any good, not having anything bad happen on your cruise just may be proof enough!

ALSO, VERY IMPORTANT:  Ship security really is everywhere.  Often closer than you think.  I know from experience and on the Freedom in fact.  Summon them if you ever need help!

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1 hour ago, YOLO said:

@Zurc Welcome to the RCB fourm!

I like your idea.  I do wonder how may of us would  take the time and make the effort to prepare for safety at home before leaving for a cruise trip.  But you are very right.  ...

 

We do the family safety reminder in the terminal, right before we board.   That way it’s fresh in everyone’s mind. (Plus, the terminal is the first place the whole family has a chance to meet up.  We drive in from different cities.)

Thanks so so much for the nice Welcome !

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3 hours ago, TXcruzer said:

FWIW we just dis-embarked Freedom yesterday and it was business as usual on the pool deck with every third window open 

Just curious if the window or area in question was roped off, or anything else to indicate the area is still being investigated?  I'm sure RC wants to make it normal as possible and not remind current passengers of the sad event so as not to ruin their cruise.  I'm just wondering what they're still required to do with the area.  Hopefully the physical investigation is complete by now. 

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It's a terribly sad tragedy and no amount of finger pointing at the cruise line will bring that poor baby back. The grandfather simply made a horrible decision that will effect him and the whole family for the rest of their lives.  It's sad enough to think about when it's not your own child/grandchild...heaven forbid if it was.  Ever since this was in the media, my husband keeps having nightmares about it.  Their finger pointing may be their only coping mechanism right now, but it's definitely not RCCL's fault.  I hope RCCL doesn't just quietly settle, because it's not on their hands at all.

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23 hours ago, Brobbins246 said:

Just curious if the window or area in question was roped off, or anything else to indicate the area is still being investigated?  I'm sure RC wants to make it normal as possible and not remind current passengers of the sad event so as not to ruin their cruise.  I'm just wondering what they're still required to do with the area.  Hopefully the physical investigation is complete by now. 

There were no indications that anything had ever happened and there was no restricted access to any areas on deck 11

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On 7/26/2019 at 12:19 PM, KLA said:

The only reasoning that I can think of for this is that people don't generally act rationally while grieving. On top of what's a pretty tragic situation between family members, they're grieving their child and grandchild. 

Or they have an attorney who figures he can get a quick pay day for himself.  I really think this lawyer thought RCCL would settle immediately to avoid bad publicity.  They aren't offering to settle and the longer this goes, the harder it's going to be for this family (and their sleazy attorney) to collect anything.

 

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10 hours ago, cruisejunkie1960 said:

Or they have an attorney who figures he can get a quick pay day for himself.  I really think this lawyer thought RCCL would settle immediately to avoid bad publicity.  They aren't offering to settle and the longer this goes, the harder it's going to be for this family (and their sleazy attorney) to collect anything.

I believe that if you have read everything on the subject that is available, you will find that the attorney was contacted by an associate of the family that was back in Indiana.  Personally I don't fault the attorney for trying to spin it his clients way, that's what I expect him to do.  What i am surprised at is that there is not a Cruise Industry Association (not Royal themselves as they are smart not to comment)  that is not out there to pick up the PR fight, because i am sure Royal is not the only ones with these types of windows.

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16 hours ago, CruiseGus said:

I believe that if you have read everything on the subject that is available, you will find that the attorney was contacted by an associate of the family that was back in Indiana.  Personally I don't fault the attorney for trying to spin it his clients way, that's what I expect him to do.  What i am surprised at is that there is not a Cruise Industry Association (not Royal themselves as they are smart not to comment)  that is not out there to pick up the PR fight, because i am sure Royal is not the only ones with these types of windows.

"Associate of the family" = small-time lawyer reaching out to a big-league lawyer in return for a cut of the fee. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/29/2019 at 1:41 PM, cruisestuff said:

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Michael Winkleman, the family’s attorney, has challenged a Puerto Rico police report that says Chloe Wiegand’s grandfather dropped the toddler out of a window July 7th when the Freedom of the Seas was docked in Puerto Rico. Winkleman has said Chloe asked her grandfather to lift her up so she could bang on the glass in a children’s play area and that she fell through the window that had inexplicably been left open.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but don't the windows on the pool deck go all the way down to the floor?  If she liked to stand and bang on the glass, why wouldn't she have stood on the pool deck and banged on the glass (just like the picture shows her doing at the ice rink!)?  Why would "she" have asked the grandfather to lift her up where there was a railing in the way and an open window!  While this is a horribly tragic accident, it's sad that many people's first reaction is to find someone else to blame for their own mistakes/actions and try to profit off of the death of a loved one as well.

 

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On 7/7/2019 at 6:43 PM, MattCasey said:

Anyone confirm? Supposedly a small child was being held by a parent/grandparent and slipped and fell several decks.

Thoughts to the family if it's true.

Extremely sad for their loss but also turning into extreme anger you would ever risk a loved ones life and not think about it. ?

Sure it sounds like just carrying the child to get a better view but everything in my soul tells me to use common sense.

Angers me to think about how easily this could have been avoided.

Bringing life into this world it is also your responsibility to keep them safe! Please everyone out there just a friendly reminder to use common sense and don't do anything unnecessary :100_pray:

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/21/2019 at 2:54 PM, TJ! said:

Extremely sad for their loss but also turning into extreme anger you would ever risk a loved ones life and not think about it. ?

Sure it sounds like just carrying the child to get a better view but everything in my soul tells me to use common sense.

Angers me to think about how easily this could have been avoided.

Bringing life into this world it is also your responsibility to keep them safe! Please everyone out there just a friendly reminder to use common sense and don't do anything unnecessary :100_pray:

What angers me in this situation is the lawyer getting the family to change the narrative of this horrible preventable accident. I've been following this story on social media and it has sadly created a very different picture of what one would expect to see on a RCCL ship.  Most of those commenting have never been on a Royal Caribbean ship and a good number of them have never been on a cruise.  It's so easy to put the blame on RCCL for the "open window next to the kid's play area."  I find myself being defensive of this cruise line that I have grown fond of.

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11 minutes ago, RatedPG said:

What angers me in this situation is the lawyer getting the family to change the narrative of this horrible preventable accident. I've been following this story on social media and it has sadly created a very different picture of what one would expect to see on a RCCL ship.  Most of those commenting have never been on a Royal Caribbean ship and a good number of them have never been on a cruise.  It's so easy to put the blame on RCCL for the "open window next to the kid's play area."  I find myself being defensive of this cruise line that I have grown fond of.

I hope you post responses "as one very familiar with the ship" to tell them the story is full of errors and to set them straight!

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