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Smaller ships phased out?


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So with the new icon ordered, and all other ships, do you think RC will sell vision and Rhapsody in the near future?  Can the bigger ships get into, for example, the Greek isles?  Do you think they will hold on to empress and majesty in hopes Cuba will open again? Or cut their losses?  Jane

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I think that Grandeur, Vision and Rhapsody may have been granted a reprieve due to the Cuba situation. I really don't get why Royal would keep MJ and NE without Cuba. NE in particular doesn't fit what Royal is as a company.

Enchantment will likely stick around for a while longer. 

Radiance Class can do Greek Isles, and Voyager Class can do some of the ports.

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Eventually all ships will leave the fleet, even the Icon class decades from now.  It's never a matter of "if" but when.  

Radiance class still has several potential years of service for destinations best served with smaller ships.

Vision class is still around because at the moment they can operate at profit.  Royal is a business and as long as a ship is in the black why would they get rid of it?

 

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Few of Royal's original ships have actually been scrapped.  They just get sold to smaller cruise lines which want them.  Of course, the names get changed along the way (sometimes multiple times).  There's a wiki on Royal's fleet that lists the current status of all ships.

There are some VERY old ships still in service.  It's more a matter of whether any company can still operate them at profit once they've aged and need more frequent repairs.  I'm sure it will be decades before Oasis leaves Royal.

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14 minutes ago, SPS said:

Royal still needs the smaller ships to Embark/Disembark and visit smaller ports. In particular, the ports of Baltimore and Tampa cannot accommodate the larger ships in which Vision class ships sail from. (Vision, Rhapsody, Grandeur, Enchantment)

Radiance class physically fit in Baltimore.  The question is does Baltimore fit Radiance class.  

Tampa already has Brilliance.  

 

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3 hours ago, bdtrex said:

Pretty sure at least 2 of the vision class ships are for sale. 

 

$250,000,000-300,000,000 so if we all chip in....lol

So if they sell are the currently booked cruises cancelled/altered?  Or do they just stop booking future cruises.  I'm currently booked for Rhapsody Mar 2021 and will be booking Grandeur May 2021.

Edited by Tanner
typo
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52 minutes ago, Tanner said:

So if they sell are the currently booked cruises cancelled/altered?  Or do they just stop booking future cruises.  I'm currently booked for Rhapsody Mar 2021 and will be booking Grandeur May 2021.

It should be much like a charter where they typically some OBC and/or price protection on alternate cruises.  It depends.  

At this point just assume they are going as planned.  They probably will.  

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36 minutes ago, twangster said:

It should be much like a charter where they typically some OBC and/or price protection on alternate cruises.  It depends.  

At this point just assume they are going as planned.  They probably will.  

 

On 7/2/2019 at 12:32 PM, mom2mybugs said:

So with the new icon ordered, and all other ships, do you think RC will sell vision and Rhapsody in the near future?  Can the bigger ships get into, for example, the Greek isles?  Do you think they will hold on to empress and majesty in hopes Cuba will open again? Or cut their losses?  Jane

Now Im curious if anyone recalls how much advanced notice is given anytime a ship is sold or transferred from one line to the next?  Is there an industry standard or is it rather immediate? 

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1 minute ago, Tanner said:

 

Now Im curious if anyone recalls how much advanced notice is given anytime a ship is sold or transferred from one line to the next?  Is there an industry standard or is it rather immediate? 

Not a lot of history to draw conclusive results into a predictable trend.  It doesn't happen that frequently and not for a few years now so things that happened 4 or 5+ years ago aren't sure things in today's modern times. 

I imagine a lot depends on the deal they negotiate.  If a buyer wants the ship now with few modification a sale could be quick.  Most times buyers try to negotiate modifications into the deal so their financing has it all included.  This might mean down time for modifications but ship yards often are booked for two years or more in advance.    That may slow down a deal.  

It all depends and doesn't occur often so there is little historical data to draw from.

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Although the bigger ships seem "more exciting" and have more to do (Voyager Class, Freedom Class, Oasis Class, Quantum Class), the smaller ships often offer more exciting ports of call during their voyages and depart from more accessible/less expensive ports to get to. Although cruises to Cuba are no longer exist, Majesty of the Seas and Empress of the Seas were offering top dollar for their cabins for cruises to Cuba because RCI's larger vessels never cruised to Cuba, which is why RCI kept those 2 ships. The future of these 2 ships are unknown. 

With RCI's Vision Class and Radiance Class ships, they still because they still make a lot of revenue for RCI, and all their ships in current operation are to remain in operation because it brings in money. Also, Ports of Tampa and Baltimore can only accommodate this size of ship or smaller. Ironically, a lot of people find it easy to drive to Baltimore or fly to Tampa because it is rather inexpensive (usually)--flying to Miami, Orlando, or Fort Lauderdale during the summer months (which is really almost year-round) is not cheap by any means.

In the future, I think we can see Majesty of the Seas and Empress of the Seas leave RCI (because of the ban to Cuba), but I don't see any reason for RCI to remove any of their ships in the near future. A cruise is a cruise.

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Baltimore's biggest issue is the Key bridge, which is lower than Tampa's which I believe would hinder a Radiance class from entering the port of Baltimore.  Baltimore has the depth for pretty much any ship with the port's cargo vessel traffic, but the height is a problem.  If they put a cruise port on the other side of the Bay bridge, you could sail an Oasis class into Maryland.  

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The big/small ship debate will depend on Royal's business strategy.

They could look at it a couple of ways:

  • RCI is a "big ship" cruise line and they will pursue a big ship strategy and ports to match. The smaller ships will eventually be sold or transferred to their smaller lines. Their smaller lines will focus on more "boutique" destinations that can only be serviced by smaller ships.
  • RCI remains the "value" cruise line that is aimed at families and they continue to leave the higher spend type cruising to Celebrity, Azamara and Silversea.  Potentially smaller ships could be transferred there and heavily refurbished for those cruiselines needs.
  • RCI actually invests in new "smaller" ships at some point.  As we are seeing with their new ships, they are moving to more environmentally friendly (but not perfect) designs that also reduce operating costs. I note that Vision of the Seas is the only ship in the fleet that is scheduled for Panama Canal crossings, so you would think there is still a place for smaller ships for trips like this.

As for Cuba, I think its conceivable that Cuban cruises will recommence at some point in the future.  The current US political environment means it cant happen, but a change in government could potentially reverse that decision overnight. (I am not trying to wade into a political discussion here ? ) So you never know what might happen in the future. 

 

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19 hours ago, ThyriC said:

Baltimore's biggest issue is the Key bridge, which is lower than Tampa's which I believe would hinder a Radiance class from entering the port of Baltimore.  Baltimore has the depth for pretty much any ship with the port's cargo vessel traffic, but the height is a problem.  If they put a cruise port on the other side of the Bay bridge, you could sail an Oasis class into Maryland.  

Actually, the bridges going into Baltimore, would not be a hindrance to Radiance Class ships ..... The issue that seems to keep coming up, from what I'm reading, is the turning basin near the Cruise Maryland Terminal ..... As for creating a new port south of the Bay Bridge, the environmental cost, not to mention the infrastructure, would be insane, I can't imagine it would be cost effective ..... it would be years before there would be a return on investment.......and that's even with Carnival as a player in the game.

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Oh I agree that the environmental impact to the bay would be immense if they built a terminal at Annapolis, or worst lost the cruise business to Norfolk.  

I dont know too much about the turning needed of the cargo ships, but I recall seeing something about some larger ships than can fit in New York have come to Baltimore regularly.  Maybe cruise ships have a greater turn requirement than the cargo ships, or maybe its just the positioning of the cruise terminal vs the cargo terminal.  So perhaps there'd be less environmental impact to increase the basin size but then it would only allow Radiance, and I'd doubt the key bridge would allow Oasis class (or Carnival's larger ships as well)

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Radiance class can fit into Baltimore, or so Michael Bayley has stated.  The issue is that Royal makes more money with Radiance class ships elsewhere right now.

Radiance was #10 in revenue in 2018, ahead of Indy and Liberty.  Putting her in Baltimore would needlessly give up revenue.  Why do that?

That's a potential problem when it's time for Vision class to leave the fleet.  Why move a ship that's capable of making more money elsewhere into Baltimore?

Until then Lady G is a hometown favorite.  Why mess with success?

In 2026 when Norway goes zero emissions in the fjords they'll need new summer routes for some ships.  That might change the revenue topography and bring Baltimore into consideration.

 

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33 minutes ago, ThyriC said:

Oh I agree that the environmental impact to the bay would be immense if they built a terminal at Annapolis, or worst lost the cruise business to Norfolk.  

I dont know too much about the turning needed of the cargo ships, but I recall seeing something about some larger ships than can fit in New York have come to Baltimore regularly.  Maybe cruise ships have a greater turn requirement than the cargo ships, or maybe its just the positioning of the cruise terminal vs the cargo terminal.  So perhaps there'd be less environmental impact to increase the basin size but then it would only allow Radiance, and I'd doubt the key bridge would allow Oasis class (or Carnival's larger ships as well)

I would agree, the least expensive fix would be to enlarge the turning basin....

As for Norfolk..... Royal used to operate out of there, you would lose a good portion of the mid-atlantic market ..... the beauty of Baltimore is not only its proximity to DC and Philly, but also the route in from the Ohio Valley along I-70 and, to a lesser extent, I-68.  You would lose that enticement if you were to move it to Norfolk .... plus, I hear the facilities are not near as nice.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/12/2019 at 1:29 PM, twangster said:

Radiance class can fit into Baltimore, or so Michael Bayley has stated.  The issue is that Royal makes more money with Radiance class ships elsewhere right now.

Radiance was #10 in revenue in 2018, ahead of Indy and Liberty.  Putting her in Baltimore would needlessly give up revenue.  Why do that?

That's a potential problem when it's time for Vision class to leave the fleet.  Why move a ship that's capable of making more money elsewhere into Baltimore?

Until then Lady G is a hometown favorite.  Why mess with success?

In 2026 when Norway goes zero emissions in the fjords they'll need new summer routes for some ships.  That might change the revenue topography and bring Baltimore into consideration.

 

Hey Twangster, I've searched for revenue by ship but can't seem to find anything reliable other than overall revenue and reports.  Is there a quick reference out of curiosity or do you need to be involved in shares to see that specific info?  Thanks.  

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27 minutes ago, Tanner said:

Hey Twangster, I've searched for revenue by ship but can't seem to find anything reliable other than overall revenue and reports.  Is there a quick reference out of curiosity or do you need to be involved in shares to see that specific info?  Thanks.  

https://cruisemarketwatch.com/ship-revenue/

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22 hours ago, JLMoran said:

And now look at Empress - doing a bunch of sailings out of Cape Liberty and Montreal that no other ship could really do!

Exactly..... there IS a market for the smaller ships ..... We were just talking about how she can get all the way in to Hamilton & St. George in Bermuda

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/31/2019 at 5:18 PM, JLMoran said:

And now look at Empress - doing a bunch of sailings out of Cape Liberty and Montreal that no other ship could really do!

 

On 8/1/2019 at 3:58 PM, coneyraven said:

Exactly..... there IS a market for the smaller ships ..... We were just talking about how she can get all the way in to Hamilton & St. George in Bermuda

Yes, very exciting. However, Empress advertises as tendering in St. George, she's small enough to dock, no?

image.png.6db575c1e77bf8ee811cab70f3396522.png

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1 minute ago, sk8erguy1978 said:

 

Yes, very exciting. However, Empress advertises as tendering in St. George, she's small enough to dock, no?

image.png.6db575c1e77bf8ee811cab70f3396522.png

I would think so, since I saw a Regent Seven Seas ship in St. George when I was there last October. But I didn't get close enough to see if it was truly docked or if it just got very close and then was tendering.

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2 hours ago, sk8erguy1978 said:

 

Yes, very exciting. However, Empress advertises as tendering in St. George, she's small enough to dock, no?

image.png.6db575c1e77bf8ee811cab70f3396522.png

 

2 hours ago, sk8erguy1978 said:

It's an overnight so it struck me as odd tendering. Either way, since Bayonne is my "home port" it's one I'm watching. 

The May 11 sailing has the ship docking there.  The other itineraries have it tendering.  Not sure but clearly as indicated by the May 11 it can dock there.  

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On 7/12/2019 at 2:29 PM, twangster said:

The issue is that Royal makes more money with Radiance class ships elsewhere right now.

Radiance was #10 in revenue in 2018, ahead of Indy and Liberty.  Putting her in Baltimore would needlessly give up revenue.  Why do that?

 

twangster, thanks for the 2018 revenue link.  The fact that Radiance exceeded Liberty’s revenue, with only 1/3 of Liberty’s passengers was very surprising.   But how much does itinerary come into play?  

Interesting - thanks again for the link !

 

Edited by Zurc
Not sure where Radiance sailed in 2018
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13 hours ago, Zurc said:

twangster, thanks for the 2018 revenue link.  The fact that Radiance exceeded Liberty’s revenue, with only 1/3 of Liberty’s passengers was very surprising.   But how much does itinerary come into play?  

Interesting - thanks again for the link !

 

Itinerary absolutely comes into play.  Radiance was doing Alaska and Australia in 2018 and both are more expensive areas to cruise so her numbers bear that out.

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I was speaking with a few different officers over the years and they told me that Royal would have a hard time selling the Radiance Class ships because of they are Gas Turbine Vessels (although they were adding diesel engines in some) it seems they are more expensive to run. They also told me that the reason Vison, Rhapsody and Grandeur were still not sold is because they have less balconies then Splendor or Legend did. 

I personally love the smaller Vision and Radiance class ships but I think soon the cost of drydocking will outweigh there value and they may have to drop the price to sell them. I saw that all Vision Class ships were up for sale a while back. 

I guess we will just have to wait and see...

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On 8/18/2019 at 2:34 AM, Rob&Ana said:

 

I personally love the smaller Vision and Radiance class ships but I think soon the cost of drydocking will outweigh there value and they may have to drop the price to sell them. I saw that all Vision Class ships were up for sale a while back. 

 

I absolutely LOVE the Oasis class, so far it is one of my favorites by far, but as much as I love that ship I also have to say that I love the smaller ones as well!  There are a few things that I enjoy about them especially how much more open they are and all of the views of the ocean from the sitting areas inside.  I honestly did not think that I would enjoy the smaller ships as much as I do, but now that I have been on several I can honestly say that I definitely see the charm in them, and will actually say that I find them a nice break from the Oasis class from time to time.  

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40 minutes ago, bhageerah said:

I absolutely LOVE the Oasis class, so far it is one of my favorites by far, but as much as I love that ship I also have to say that I love the smaller ones as well!  There are a few things that I enjoy about them especially how much more open they are and all of the views of the ocean from the sitting areas inside.  I honestly did not think that I would enjoy the smaller ships as much as I do, but now that I have been on several I can honestly say that I definitely see the charm in them, and will actually say that I find them a nice break from the Oasis class from time to time.  

Very true, the big ships are amazing with all they bring to the table but there is certainly something very special about sailing on the smaller ships...I'm very glad we still have a choice today. 

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