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Independence of the Seas 2020 – no more Southampton but COCO CAY!


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6 hours ago, mattymay said:

That explains the gap in the Fort Lauderdale schedule from Jun - Oct with no ships. They probably had this planned for a while and were waiting to see demand for Coco Cay.

If so, then it's deplorable that they kept taking bookings knowing the impact that it could have.

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11 minutes ago, Joe01 said:

Anyone else read Royal Caribbean UK's Twitter feed? Some of the responses they are giving sound like lines from a soap opera or pantomime.

Awful isn’t it. The RCI UK Facebook page was appalling yesterday. First they publish that they cancelled all the Indy sailings as we know - in favour of Cococay cruises, which obviously caused uproar - then couple hours later they stick up a massive post promoting Cococay - talk about rubbing it in. There is some very annoyed customers out there and rightly so. 

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4 minutes ago, Wilmsta said:

Awful isn’t it. The RCI UK Facebook page was appalling yesterday. First they publish that they cancelled all the Indy sailings as we know - in favour of Cococay cruises, which obviously caused uproar - then couple hours later they stick up a massive post promoting Cococay - talk about rubbing it in. There is some very annoyed customers out there and rightly so. 

Yes - saw the CocoCay post. Did they not realise that that would infuriate people further? Not the best way to treat a loyal market, especially since many can't fly to the USA for a cruise to CocoCay for a variety of reasons. I love Royal, but I did lose some respect for them yesterday. It's bad to remove a ship, but the way that it was handled moved the situation from bad to atrocious.

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5 minutes ago, Joe01 said:

Yes - saw the CocoCay post. Did they not realise that that would infuriate people further? Not the best way to treat a loyal market, especially since many can't fly to the USA for a cruise to CocoCay for a variety of reasons. I love Royal, but I did lose some respect for them yesterday. It's bad to remove a ship, but the way that it was handled moved the situation from bad to atrocious.

Yes likewise Joe. I’m relatively new to Cruising and I’m very surprised at the way this has been handled - and to increase costs of the only other RC ship sailing out of Southampton for the same period is terrible. 

They really have scored a massive own goal with the UK customers. 

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8 hours ago, mattymay said:

That explains the gap in the Fort Lauderdale schedule from Jun - Oct with no ships. They probably had this planned for a while and were waiting to see demand for Coco Cay.

Actually No.. I live in ft. Lauderdale.. Every summer all the ships leave during this time.. We are lucky if they keep one ship in Ft. Lauderdale during the summer months.. 

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Just now, AGSLC5 said:

Actually No.. I live in ft. Lauderdale.. Every summer all the ships leave during this time.. We are lucky if they keep one ship in Ft. Lauderdale during the summer months.. 

They had 2 Oasis Class year round until last October...

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Just now, Joe01 said:

They had 2 Oasis Class year round until last October...

True.. I didn't explain myself correctly.. I meant to say the extra ships like Indy, Adventure, and whatever radiance class ship they have during the winter is always gone during the summer.. So basically the extra ships that we get in the winter those always move So I don't think this was planned a year in advance.. Do I think this has been planned for about 2-3 months yes. I think when they soft opened Coco Cay in March and saw how popular it was they put this plan in place full steam ahead. But I just don't think this is why Ft. Lauderdale had no ships for next summer they have no ships because Allure has to go into dry dock, Anthem has to go into dry dock which makes them move Oasis to Bayonne, Symphony is not going to move from Miami, and Harmony is in Port Canaveral... So my post was basically just saying I don't think that's why they had no ships planned for Ft. Lauderdale lol 

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14 hours ago, Joe01 said:

It will probably be a while until they are released. Hoping Indy does 7 nighters - Navigator and Mariner are wasted on the 3/4 night cruises.

I Think It Will Do Three And Four Nights And Five Night Cruise With The Rare Seven Night Cruise Thrown Into The Mix! They Will Make  More Money With Shorter Sailings In The Summer Down Here. 

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1 hour ago, Wilmsta said:

 

They really have scored a massive own goal with the UK customers

Saw an influx of new members on a P&O FB group I'm in yesterday, all saying they're looking at P&O cruises to replace their cancelled Indy bookings. 

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Doesn't just seem to be UK that the prices jumped either.

I've been keeping an eye on a 2020 sailing from Barcelona and this morning when I looked at it again the price jumped up higher than I had seen it before. At the start of the week it had dropped to, can only assume that the announcement to move Indy out of the UK in 2020 has prompted the price jump. Either that or its very very coincidental

The price for the sailings for Anthem for 2020 are just insane. I'd love to go back on but I just cant swing that amount. Big jump from when she was here last time

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13 hours ago, AGSLC5 said:

True.. I didn't explain myself correctly.. I meant to say the extra ships like Indy, Adventure, and whatever radiance class ship they have during the winter is always gone during the summer.. So basically the extra ships that we get in the winter those always move So I don't think this was planned a year in advance.. Do I think this has been planned for about 2-3 months yes. I think when they soft opened Coco Cay in March and saw how popular it was they put this plan in place full steam ahead. But I just don't think this is why Ft. Lauderdale had no ships for next summer they have no ships because Allure has to go into dry dock, Anthem has to go into dry dock which makes them move Oasis to Bayonne, Symphony is not going to move from Miami, and Harmony is in Port Canaveral... So my post was basically just saying I don't think that's why they had no ships planned for Ft. Lauderdale lol 

Yeah which was my point that there is always at least one ship! There were going to be none between Jun - Oct. I am not saying they planned to have no ships there to move Independence.. I am saying they have probably always been thinking of a way to fill that gap if it makes more money. Just unlucky that UK appears to be the most under performing location.

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I think the main issue here is the price and the price structure, 

RCL Europe cruise cost almost twice than Caribbean cruise , 7 nights Rhapsody Of the Seas for a European cruise starts around 1000 $ PP while  you can find 7 nights around 500-600 PP when she doing a Caribbean route.

One can say its just a matter of higher cost of operation in Europe or just a matter of demands , but when the other cruise lines offer much better prices (beside NCL) issue starts.

Another issue , is the market change , more families are traveling with children , here RCL have a huge cost disadvantage, while they do offer from time to time "children sell free" its not include July/August while in many other European based company the kids sell free is for all the cruises .

That has dramatic price effect  , for example , my brother which  hears from me  only good things about RCL  and would love to try it  but he has two kids , if he wants to travel during Jul/August   while the kids are on vacation he will need to pay almost twice to do so on RCL ship than on MSC (on a ship the size of Voyager).Now he is going on his third cruise with the kids and they love it. 

Regarding the reduction in Europe , you can see it also on Barcelona sails , I am monitoring my 9-Jul Sail , and you can still find many cabins beside maybe insides , including star class suite.

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Was so excited about our Canaries and South Africa cruise in 2020 on our favorite ship, Independence. Poor, poor choice Royal to move that ship. If I wanted a day in Coco Cay I would have booked a Caribbean cruise.  Now I really don't want to go to Coco Cay and I'm out on going to the cruise I wanted and booked.  Doesn't really say much that you are pretty much forcing everyone to the "new" redesigned island.  Not all of your loyal followers wants to play in the water all day. There is something to say about getting a cultural experience on one of your cruises. We are diamond plus cruisers with you and don't appreciate your lack of concern for loyal cruisers and taking away booked cruises.

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We were booked on a cruise to Norway next May. I booked our aft corner balcony the day the cruise was released. We got the cancellation notice on Friday. We still haven't received the email that says how long we have to use the Future Cruise Credit. Do we need to rebook in a year or do we need to use it in a year? I was looking at other lines that go to Norway for next summer. But if we have to use the credit in a year, I would look at Alaska with RC.

thanks

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1 hour ago, BeatArmy2010 said:

We were booked on a cruise to Norway next May. I booked our aft corner balcony the day the cruise was released. We got the cancellation notice on Friday. We still haven't received the email that says how long we have to use the Future Cruise Credit. Do we need to rebook in a year or do we need to use it in a year? I was looking at other lines that go to Norway for next summer. But if we have to use the credit in a year, I would look at Alaska with RC.

thanks

We were booked on the same cruise to Norway next year and very disappointed that it has been cancelled, particularly as we had planned to take our 4 year old granddaughter with us. To make the situation worse the Norwegian fjords itinerary from Southampton will not exist at all next year. And, as others have said, prices for Anthem are much higher. 

My wife has received her FCC (sent to my email) and I don't expect to receive mine as, for some reason, Royal refuse to send to me at my email address. The FCC states that expiry is the 31st May 2021 so you should be ok.

If under performance of the UK market was a contributory factor to the change, it might have been better for RCCL to reduce capacity by sailing 2 smaller ships from Southampton, say one Voyager class and one Vision class, rather than Anthem by itself.

By the way, we are sailing on Explorer to the Norwegian fjords at the end of this month - and that sailing seems to be full, which means it can't be that unpopular.

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I don't think Vision Class would have worked in Southampton - the last time we had a small one was Legend, which was 13 years ago and the first ship that actually sailed from there in the first place. Since then, we've seen Navigator, Independence, Adventure, Anthem and Explorer.

What I feel could have worked alongside one larger ship in Southampton is re-introducing the Radiance Class in Harwich. Both Jewel and Brilliance spent several years on that itinerary, and I believe Splendour did it in the 90's, however the itinerary was cut in 2016. That could have taken on the Norwegian Fjords/Scandinavia market. 

40 minutes ago, JohnUK said:

If under performance of the UK market was a contributory factor to the change, it might have been better for RCCL to reduce capacity by sailing 2 smaller ships from Southampton, say one Voyager class and one Vision class, rather than Anthem by itself.

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 12:31 PM, Jason12 said:

So I’m guessing the Ovation is coming to the UK 2021 as it’s repositioning from Sydney to Singapore March 21 and not to Hawaii as usual..

the Voyager is also doing its usual repositioning to Singapore in April 2021 for the season so I cannot see the Ovation staying in Singapore.?? 

That is primarily for its 5 year dry dock which will be completed in Singapore due to the ships size - that isn't to say it won't come to the UK after, but it is why it needs to go there initially!

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On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:39 PM, Joe01 said:

I don't think Vision Class would have worked in Southampton - the last time we had a small one was Legend, which was 13 years ago and the first ship that actually sailed from there in the first place. Since then, we've seen Navigator, Independence, Adventure, Anthem and Explorer.

What I feel could have worked alongside one larger ship in Southampton is re-introducing the Radiance Class in Harwich. Both Jewel and Brilliance spent several years on that itinerary, and I believe Splendour did it in the 90's, however the itinerary was cut in 2016. That could have taken on the Norwegian Fjords/Scandinavia market. 

 

I work at Harwich and am gutted we lost royal just as I got into cruising. I don't see them coming back anytime soon :(

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Another negative impact of this is on the crew. There are a lot of British crew (particularly those who work under the CD) that may want to be based out of Southampton (trust me, I've known that to happen) and now that option is limited for them.  

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Don’t know how accurate this is but have been looking at the port listings for Gibraltar for some time. Originally pre Indy cancellation they had schedules for both Indy and Anthem in 2020. After the change of schedules with Indy the dates have now been removed. I then checked 2021 of correct it looks like we might get Indy, explorer and anthem in 2021 (although when on explorer recently it was mentioned that Indy would be posted for Caribbean cruises for the next 2 years)

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  • 2 weeks later...

So they are doing 3/4/5 day cruises?

Yay...?

Surely they could have been a bit more creative with itineraries, especially with 2 large ships covering that market? Basically excludes anyone from outside the USA that may have planned to sail her in the Caribbean (I'd seen some on CC suggesting UK travellers to fly to Florida for ID). No Indy for me, back to the drawing board.

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It looks like they snuck a 7-nighter in there too (Nov 14, 2020).

There's even a 2-nighter to CocoCay (May 16, 2020) which may be a test of demand for sailings that short for the local market.  If they find success in that they could potentially use the really small ships to do CocoCay-only weekend runs like that and target the local S. Fla market.

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9 minutes ago, AshleyDillo said:

It looks like they snuck a 7-nighter in there too (Nov 14, 2020).

There's even a 2-nighter to CocoCay (May 16, 2020) which may be a test of demand for sailings that short for the local market.  If they find success in that they could potentially use the really small ships to do CocoCay-only weekend runs like that and target the local S. Fla market.

I don't think that a small ship would be able to compete in the short cruise market when they have Mariner, Indy and Navigator. That's clearly what people are going for. Majesty and Empress are likely going.

The Nov 14th sailing was already scheduled when she was going to the UK. There is also a 7 nighter on Nov 9th after the TA this year.

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19 hours ago, Joe01 said:

So they are doing 3/4/5 day cruises?

Yay...?

Surely they could have been a bit more creative with itineraries, especially with 2 large ships covering that market? Basically excludes anyone from outside the USA that may have planned to sail her in the Caribbean (I'd seen some on CC suggesting UK travellers to fly to Florida for ID). No Indy for me, back to the drawing board.

The short Florida cruise market dictates the 3/4/5 cycles which in turn defines the ports available for these durations.  

It seems that Mariner and Navigator have done so well on these routes it warrants a bigger ship.  It's interesting they can make more money by placing Indy into that market compared to the UK.  This is after all about money. 

Royal is a business.  A publicly traded business with a responsibility to it's investors.  That will always be the primary guiding force behind all decisions they make.  

 

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2 minutes ago, twangster said:

The short Florida cruise market dictates the 3/4/5 cycles which in turn defines the ports available for these durations.  

It seems that Mariner and Navigator have done so well on these routes it warrants a bigger ship.  It's interesting they can make more money by placing Indy into that market compared to the UK.  This is after all about money. 

Royal is a business.  A publicly traded business with a responsibility to it's investors.  That will always be the primary guiding force behind all decisions they make.  

 

Yeah, I get that they are a business and that these short runs make money, but is it really what people want? I'm frustrated that all of the amped ships are going to itineraries that only Americans can sail.

As a non-American, it feels that my options are getting gradually more limited.

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5 minutes ago, Joe01 said:

Yeah, I get that they are a business and that these short runs make money, but is it really what people want? I'm frustrated that all of the amped ships are going to itineraries that only Americans can sail.

As a non-American, it feels that my options are getting gradually more limited.

Florida is the cruise capital of the world, by a large margin over other regions yet by numbers the majority of Americans have never been on a cruise.  

Royal's strategy is to capture those "never cruised" and create brand loyalty that will go on for years to come cultivating a larger loyal customer base.

I understand your frustration but it isn't about Americans or non-Americans, it's about the market where demand is strongest and opportunity to further capitalize is greatest.  Similar reason why they have the newest ship in Asia that Americans will never get to experience unless they go to the ship.  I'd love to sail Spectrum but it's not going to happen unless I go to the ship.

Come over for a 7 night cruise and tack on a 3 night on an AMPED ship.  

 

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14 minutes ago, twangster said:

The short Florida cruise market dictates the 3/4/5 cycles which in turn defines the ports available for these durations.  

It seems that Mariner and Navigator have done so well on these routes it warrants a bigger ship.  It's interesting they can make more money by placing Indy into that market compared to the UK.  This is after all about money. 

Royal is a business.  A publicly traded business with a responsibility to it's investors.  That will always be the primary guiding force behind all decisions they make.  

 

I've never run the numbers, but I'm sure @twangsterhas! ?

Is a 3, 4 or 5 night cruise the same cost for us and profit for RCCL per pp/per day as a longer say 7 or 10 day cruise? Like at Disney parks, the cost per day drops as you book longer trips, since they will get you to spend $ on extras, the longer you are there.

Does RCCL make more money running a 3 day and 4 day back to back cruise rather than a 7 day, all things being equal?

Or is it simply easier to sell and fill the ships with shorter cruises?

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39 minutes ago, Joe01 said:

Yeah, I get that they are a business and that these short runs make money, but is it really what people want? 

Yes, they clearly see more demand for short sailings to Perfect Day than in UK, and/or longer sailings. As @twangster said, they are making decisions that will net them the greatest profits.

That isn't to say no one wants the kind of sailings you are interested in.  Just that there are more people who want what RC is offering now.

This is the same exact logic that has resulted in no cruises from Los Angeles for over a decade. RC can make more money with their ships elsewhere.

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53 minutes ago, FManke said:

Does RCCL make more money running a 3 day and 4 day back to back cruise rather than a 7 day, all things being equal?

Or is it simply easier to sell and fill the ships with shorter cruises?

Great questions.  

I don't have access to the numbers, but I can imagine that when people pay less for the cruise itself they have more money to spend on related activities for that vacation.  This possibly drives on-board revenue higher for short cruises compared to longer cruises.

We know of several things that are related and might play out differently on short cruises.  Two that come to mind are:

  • Consumers are looking for an "experience" not simply a trip.
  • Consumers will spend peripheral money that become masked by the larger purchase of the base fare.

Let's say a 3 night cruise is $299 pp.  On the surface that appears a whole lot less than a 7 night cruise at $599 or $699 pp.  "It's only $299, we can afford that".

Having spent that $299 pp now the drink package questions comes up.  Short cruise, weekend, drink all you wan't, "We're on vacation, let's do it!".  

Drink packages on long cruises start to lose appeal.  The longer the cruise, less appealing.  Same effect as the cruise fare itself.  The drink package for a short cruise costs a lot less than it does on a long cruise, $210 pp vs. $500 pp, times two.  "We can afford $210 pp, but $1,000 for the week is too much!" which is pretty much how the mind that wants to justify it will look at it.

Next come excursions, including Perfect Day excursions.  Consumers are looking for an experience, how better than to add a few Perfect Day experiences?

In the end the short cruise guest can buy a cruise, add the drink package and add a couple of experiences and still be under the base fare of a 7 night cruise yet they've bundled in so much more.    Now they are getting an experience, not just a cruise AND it's all done for around $1,200 or so which is easy to place on a credit card absent of guilt. 

Carrying several thousand on a credit card for a longer cruise appears daunting if you are going float it on a credit card.  Floating $1,200 on a credit card for a few months is no big deal and they still have those great memories in mind with each payment applied.  "Totally worth it".

The weekend cruises are easier to plan with friends... "It's only $299 dude, even you can afford that!".

Three night cruises over the weekend don't require consuming vacation days.  "Call in sick dude, it's just one day".

So yeah, the short cruise market is a thing and is very attractive to consumers that are often younger, early into careers and can't commit thousands of dollars to a vacation but still want to experience something.  Capture them now and when they have progressed in their lives and have more disposable income to put into longer vacations who are they going to cruise with?

Even for seasoned cruisers, there is appeal for a quick inexpensive cruise.  "We've haven't cruise for a few months, let's jump on a ship for 4 nights, it's pretty cheap compared to those 7 night cruises we just did".

Put it all together and you have a business solution with near term revenue infusion coupled with a long term strategy to expand your customer base.  If it were just a short term money grab you could question the tactic but it isn't short sighted in nature.  There is a potential long term benefit as well.

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