Thoughts on renaming ships after extensive dry docks?

[Andrew72681]

I’ve always thought that Carnival’s practice of renaming ships after they go through revitalization was stupid. I think I may be coming around on that though after looking at the Shipmate app. The Amped Navigator for example is being held back by the reviews of Navigator pre-amping. If the ship had changed names it certainly wouldn’t be a 3 star review. 

[Matt]

In my opinion, online reviews of cruises are worthless. They provide entertainment at best, but I sincerely hope people do not base their decision to book a cruise or not based on irrational online reviews.

I wrote a blog post on why online reviews of cruise ships should be ignored: https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2018/07/24/trying-answer-the-most-common-royal-caribbean-question

[Andrew72681]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

In my opinion, online reviews of cruises are worthless. They provide entertainment at best, but I sincerely hope people do not base their decision to book a cruise or not based on irrational online reviews.

I wrote a blog post on why online reviews of cruise ships should be ignored: https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2018/07/24/trying-answer-the-most-common-royal-caribbean-question

That means I’ve spent way too much time reading your B2B2B on Navigator and @Lovetocruise2002 star class blogs on Harmony.

[twangster]

Carnival only does it to escape the legacy of bad event.  Triumph never could overcome the "poop cruise" event so renaming it is an attempt to wipe that from the history books.  Other ships aren't being renamed as Carnival dry docks them.

That may have worked in the past but with today's online databases, wikis and forums the reasoning and logic of renaming a ship may not have the Men in Black mind-wiping memory clearing factor it once did.  

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Andrew72681 said:

That means I’ve spent way too much time reading your B2B2B on Navigator and @Lovetocruise2002 star class blogs on Harmony.

Ha! It definitely is a bit ironic for me to write that online reviews should be ignored while I write and record recaps of my cruises. I hope at the very least what I share is more of a glimpse into what the experience is like, rather than a sales pitch one way or another.

[twangster]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Ha! It definitely is a bit ironic for me to write that online reviews should be ignored while I write and record recaps of my cruises. I hope at the very least what I share is more of a glimpse into what the experience is like, rather than a sales pitch one way or another.

Live blogs are different than a rating system.  i.e. -  Dinner was 4 of 5 stars while house keeping was 5 of 5 stars sort of thing. 

"This ship has an overall 3.97 rating based on 734 guest reviews"

[Zambia-Zaire]

Reviews are helpful in many ways however...give the cruise owners an opportunity to reexamine certain processes & procedures that made need to be tweaked or update/modernize. Also gain helpful advise when it may be time to replace a venue with a more attractive idea.

On the passenger side...give cruisers heads up on some things to expect or at minimal, be aware of. Most reviewers tend to be honest in their criticism & the reader has to determine if it a concern or not, based on their individual likes & dislike or levels of agreement/disagreement.

I know there are some malicious reviews out there, regardless how overly zealous or exaggerated some may be; they for the most part have some personal element or level of truth to it...just those individuals take this extremely personal...and I think most readers can discern the difference.

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, Zambia-Zaire said:

and I think most readers can discern the difference

I disagree. People pay attention to the star reviews primarily, the fact there are as many 1 or 2 star reviews out there is ludicrous.  All too often, I get questions from readers who are worried because of "all the negative reviews".

New cruisers cannot discern between someone who is upset that the salt shakers are missing from the MDR table versus someone that truly had a horrific experience. 

[coneyraven]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

I disagree. People pay attention to the star reviews primarily, the fact there are as many 1 or 2 star reviews out there is ludicrous.  All too often, I get questions from readers who are worried because of "all the negative reviews".

New cruisers cannot discern between someone who is upset that the salt shakers are missing from the MDR table versus someone that truly had a horrific experience. 

You nailed it ....

[Andrew72681]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

I disagree. People pay attention to the star reviews primarily, the fact there are as many 1 or 2 star reviews out there is ludicrous.  All too often, I get questions from readers who are worried because of "all the negative reviews".

New cruisers cannot discern between someone who is upset that the salt shakers are missing from the MDR table versus someone that truly had a horrific experience. 

I also think as a self-selecting audience of “enthusiasts” (why else would we spend time on a message board) we never see things as a new cruiser would. If you were someone who cruised Mariner 8 years ago you might expect a similar experience to that one with more rundown rooms and public areas. 

[twangster]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I disagree. People pay attention to the star reviews primarily, the fact there are as many 1 or 2 star reviews out there is ludicrous.  All too often, I get questions from readers who are worried because of "all the negative reviews".

New cruisers cannot discern between someone who is upset that the salt shakers are missing from the MDR table versus someone that truly had a horrific experience. 

I suspect a large number of negative reviews come from improper expectations.  There is a concept among new cruisers that a cruise should be a "Love Boat" all inclusive experience with massive cabins, Captain's everywhere to escort you arm in arm and more crew than passengers around you at all times.

Carnival benefits in that few people buy the cheapest things in life and expect the best.  When you book Motel 8 you don't expect the Ritz.  Expectations are low so it's easy to meet them.  As a result the playing field isn't level and ratings are skewed.  

So many negative review stem from something the guest failed to do. 

Actual review comments on another site - "I ran out of diapers and the ship didn't supply them for free.  I'm on vacation, I shouldn't have to spend time shopping for diapers, worst cruise ever".  

[Traveler]

If we would book cruises only per the reviews we would never go to the one of our best cruise so far (10 days cruise  to Vietnam)  or book Spectrum of the seas out of Chicana.  This is true also for hotels.

I think, in review sites people tend to write more bad reviews than good reviews ,  I guess people have more energy to write reviews when they have something to complain , a way to "punish" the vendor. I read reviews , but I use filters while reading them , its funny to read things like "worse cruise ever" and then to see that someone wrote it since the barman put too much ice in his drink or the ship captain did not want to wait for them while they wanted to use the happy hour offer on shore .

 

[marti314]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If we would book cruises only per the reviews we would never go to the one of our best cruise so far (1 days to Vietnam)  or book Spectrum of the seas out of Chicana.  This is true also for hotels.

I think, in review sites people tend to write more bad reviews than good reviews ,  I guess people have more energy to write reviews when they have something to complain , a way to "punish" the vendor. I read reviews , but I use filters while reading them , its funny to read things like "worse cruise ever" and then to see that someone wrote it since the barman put too much ice in his drink or the ship captain did not want to wait for them while they wanted to use the happy hour offer on shore .

 

This is human nature, 1 person tells 10 people about a bad experience.  Getting them to rave about something they expected which met their expectations kinda just seems silly.

I went to the store today, they had all the groceries i wanted in stock, everything rang up the correct price and my credit card went through without an issue ------ Sounds silly right?

If 4000 - 6000 people are on a cruise ship every week and you only see say 800 reviews TOTAL for that ship over say a 5 year time period, i would say that means its pretty amazing!

 

[Andrew72681]

I think we've gotten a bit off track. Having not been on Navigator or Mariner (excluding the prior amped ships as it doesn't seem like the program had hit its stride) is there someone who was on pre and post? Does the ship feel like it's still true to what it was before the improvements? Is there anyone who had a less than desirable outlook before, who now is ready to hop back on?

[tiny260]

5 hours ago, twangster said:

Live blogs are different than a rating system.  i.e. -  Dinner was 4 of 5 stars while house keeping was 5 of 5 stars sort of thing. 

"This ship has an overall 3.97 rating based on 734 guest reviews"

100% agree with this. But I have always taken cruise reviews with grain of salt.

Now if you are talking about a new car or TV or expensive camera, those I at least look at.

[ltw]

3 minutes ago, Andrew72681 said:

I think we've gotten a bit off track. Having not been on Navigator or Mariner (excluding the prior amped ships as it doesn't seem like the program had hit its stride) is there someone who was on pre and post? Does the ship feel like it's still true to what it was before the improvements? Is there anyone who had a less than desirable outlook before, who now is ready to hop back on?

I was on the Mariner after her upgrades. I can't say I was on her prior, but I have been on both Explorer and Adventure.

Mariner's core design and layout remain unchanged. Royal's Voyager Class were game changers at the time and still remain very popular, so changing the names would just be stupid. If someone has a terrible experience that would cause them to not want to sail a particular ship again, I don't think a name change is going to shift their opinion. It's still the same ship, and a little research would tell them that.

[tiny260]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

I disagree. People pay attention to the star reviews primarily, the fact there are as many 1 or 2 star reviews out there is ludicrous.  All too often, I get questions from readers who are worried because of "all the negative reviews".

New cruisers cannot discern between someone who is upset that the salt shakers are missing from the MDR table versus someone that truly had a horrific experience. 

I agree, I have always said this from day one of joining this blog site, it has to do with the cruisers expectations, if they have realistic expectations, they know what they bought, they are not expecting Star Class on a deck 3 interior cabin, then it can be the best cruise of their life, but if they are expecting Star Class then they are going to be very disappointed.

[Andrew72681]

5 minutes ago, tiny260 said:

100% agree with this. But I have always taken cruise reviews with grain of salt.

Now if you are talking about a new car or TV or expensive camera, those I at least look at.

I'm the same but with hotels, I'll take that grain of salt a little bit (a hotel that should be five stars getting four) but if it's a 3 star (say a Courtyard or Sheraton) and the ratings are in the 2's I'm going to avoid it as staying in that middle tier should be easy.

[tiny260]

2 hours ago, twangster said:

I suspect a large number of negative reviews come from improper expectations.

Sorry @twangster , had not read your reply when I posted mine.

[Andrew72681]

3 minutes ago, ltw said:

I was on the Mariner after her upgrades. I can't say I was on her prior, but I have been on both Explorer and Adventure.

Mariner's core design and layout remain unchanged. Royal's Voyager Class were game changers at the time and still remain very popular, so changing the names would just be stupid. If someone has a terrible experience that would cause them to not want to sail a particular ship again, I don't think a name change is going to shift their opinion. It's still the same ship, and a little research would tell them that.

I'm going to have to disagree with that a bit on the core of the ship changing. Listening to @Matt talk about Navigator now  appears to almost put that ship into the Oasis class ratings. 

[ltw]

7 minutes ago, Andrew72681 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with that a bit on the core of the ship changing. Listening to @Matt talk about Navigator now  appears to almost put that ship into the Oasis class ratings. 

I'm talking about the overall layout of the ship. There is still the promenade running down the center of deck 5, the casino on deck 4, the pool on deck 11, the MDR aft on 3, 4 and 5, etc, etc. Venues are changing, there are new materials, styles, and concepts, but it's still a similar space plan. 

It might be offering an Oasis Class experience, but it's not an Oasis Class ship. All I'm saying is that the Voyager Class have always been successful, and they're only improving on them at this point. No need to erase their legacies. 

[tiny260]

I think @Matt and @twangster have been on both ships pre and post, so you may have to wait on them. I'm sure others.

I can comment on Adventure (Not as an extensive dry dock) and Liberty pre and post, they still felt like the same ship, just different and upgraded venues after.

I commented on a post quite a while back, someone was asking about going from a Voyager class to an O class and navigating around the ship, what was different, my answer was that, basically (I use this term broadly), they are the same, Windjammer is basically in the same place, theater in the same place, promenade in the same place, etc.. So getting around the ship would have been "basically" the same

[tiny260]

20 minutes ago, Andrew72681 said:

I'm the same but with hotels, I'll take that grain of salt a little bit (a hotel that should be five stars getting four) but if it's a 3 star (say a Courtyard or Sheraton) and the ratings are in the 2's I'm going to avoid it as staying in that middle tier should be easy.

Agreed, I just stayed at the Marriott West Loop in Houston, 3.5 stars, in January I stayed at a Marriott Biscayne Bay in Miami, depending on where I looked 4-4.5 stars and twice as expensive as the hotel in Houston, but they hotel in Houston was the better hotel on all levels.

[Andrew72681]

3 minutes ago, tiny260 said:

Agreed, I just stayed at the Marriott West Loop in Houston, 3.5 stars, in January I stayed at a Marriott Biscayne Bay in Miami, depending on where I looked 4-4.5 stars and twice as expensive as the hotel in Houston, but they hotel in Houston was the better hotel on all levels.

Funny that you mention the Marriott Biscayne Bay. We were booked at that property for our May cruise, but just changed the other day to the JW Marriott as the points price wasn't much different.

[tiny260]

2 minutes ago, Andrew72681 said:

Funny that you mention the Marriott Biscayne Bay. We were booked at that property for our May cruise, but just changed the other day to the JW Marriott as the points price wasn't much different.

I think the Biscayne Bay is showing it's age a little, for full disclosure all we did was sleep there and eat breakfast, we went out for dinner, the bell hop's were top notch.

Funny story though, I was in the preferred check in lane and waited and waited, no body came out, finely a rep came over (Probably 15 minutes) and after a little discussion that I would only be there 1 night she upgraded me to the Penthouse suite, massive overkill, but I didn't say no. Same thing happened to @WAAAYTOOO at this hotel.

[Andrew72681]

1 minute ago, tiny260 said:

I think the Biscayne Bay is showing it's age a little, for full disclosure all we did was sleep there and eat breakfast, we went out for dinner, the bell hop's were top notch.

Funny story though, I was in the preferred check in lane and waited and waited, no body came out, finely a rep came over (Probably 15 minutes) and after a little discussion that I would only be there 1 night she upgraded me to the Penthouse suite, massive overkill, but I didn't say no. Same thing happened to @WAAAYTOOO at this hotel.

Having stayed in the Presidential Suite a few weeks ago at the Gaylord National hotel, those big suites are sometimes in the worst shape. We had a ton of room, but furniture was all really old and the shower didn't work. Paint was chipped all over.

[twangster]

24 minutes ago, tiny260 said:

Sorry @twangster , had not read your reply when I posted mine.

No need to apologize

 

25 minutes ago, Andrew72681 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with that a bit on the core of the ship changing. Listening to @Matt talk about Navigator now  appears to almost put that ship into the Oasis class ratings. 

Navigator was a fine ship before and an even better ship after.  I sailed her weeks before she went in and right after she finished.  The pool deck is a whole new look.  Playmakers, Hooked, To Dry For, Starbucks, slides, etc. are all new venues but she is still Navigator right to the core. 

If Royal attempted to come out with a new name for her I'd suggest it was sleazy marketing gimmick trying to pass her off as a brand new ship built in 2019 to confuse new cruisers.

Same with Mariner but not as eye popping a transformation.  

Changing names causes a lot of confusion and costs a lot of money that would be wasteful.  You change a name of ship when you want to obscure it's past.  For example, when acquired by a new company - sure change the name.    In case of Carnival they want to obscure the past and trick people into thinking it's a new ship.  

[marti314]

11 minutes ago, twangster said:

If Royal attempted to come out with a new name for her I'd suggest it was sleazy marketing gimmick trying to pass her off as a brand new ship built in 2019 to confuse new cruisers.

 

Agreed, whats the easiest way for Airlines to wipe away their poor ON TIME percentage for a given flight?  Change the flight number and move it  + - 7 minutes and BOOM ontime percentage is set back to 100%.

[Lovetocruise2002]

2 hours ago, Andrew72681 said:

Listening to @Matt talk about Navigator now  appears to almost put that ship into the Oasis class ratings. 

While I agree fully that Navigator post amp looks fantastic, she will never be OA class.  We sailed Mariner post amp (which BTW, I think that Navigator beats Mariner post amp) and the new additions were fun, but she still did not have that big ship feel.  I feel that Voyager class ships are great for shorter sailings (which is what they are doing) especially if they are doing the regular Caribbean run.  But then again, I am biased towards OA class, so no ship can replace that lol.

[Andrew72681]

8 minutes ago, Lovetocruise2002 said:

While I agree fully that Navigator post amp looks fantastic, she will never be OA class.  We sailed Mariner post amp (which BTW, I think that Navigator beats Mariner post amp) and the new additions were fun, but she still did not have that big ship feel.  I feel that Voyager class ships are great for shorter sailings (which is what they are doing) especially if they are doing the regular Caribbean run.  But then again, I am biased towards OA class, so no ship can replace that lol.

Having only done Harmony on RCCL before it’ll be interesting to compare after our May cruise on Navigator. Looks like we may be fitting one mariner this summer as well. 

[ThyriC]

I think online reviews need to be taken with a grain of salt.  Should negative reviews be completely ignored?  No I dont think they should.  However I think that they need to be looked at critically.  If someone is completely bashing in a review, of anything from a cruise ship to a candy bar, I'd look critically at their review, what are they trying to say or what are they trying to gain by the negative review.  Same with positively glowing nothing is wrong reviews.  

Everyone is different in their needs and expectations.  Some people expect a Silversea experience for Carnival prices.  Others are absolutely thrilled if someone brings them a glass of water.  Both are both unreasonable expectations both positive and negative.  Also 4 year old reviews for a cruise you're going on next week arent that valuable because a lot likely has changed in the past 4 years.

However in depth reviews or blogs have more value to me because then people tend to explain their expectations so you can decide for yourself if these expectations are excessive. 

I dont think a ship naming change needs to happen unless the ship has undergone something traumatic like the Triumph.  If a ship is refreshed or has extensive renovations, I dont think that's enough to warrant a name change.  Most reviews arent based on the deck plans, most reviews are based on the customer experience and customer expectations.  And those are mostly in the hands of staff.  Should a ship get a name change after a crew change?  That can impact the customer experience far more than the addition of a waterslide or a bar.  

Not to mention, more people are likely to post negative reviews on any product rather than positive reviews.  So people are more likely to be critical in reviews, and sometimes unnecessarily so.  

[Matt]

On 3/29/2019 at 5:20 PM, Lovetocruise2002 said:

While I agree fully that Navigator post amp looks fantastic, she will never be OA class.  We sailed Mariner post amp (which BTW, I think that Navigator beats Mariner post amp) and the new additions were fun, but she still did not have that big ship feel.  I feel that Voyager class ships are great for shorter sailings (which is what they are doing) especially if they are doing the regular Caribbean run.  But then again, I am biased towards OA class, so no ship can replace that lol.

Sabrina will change her tune if RC added Coastal Kitchen and/or that filet to Navigator. 

[WAAAYTOOO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Sabrina will change her tune if RC added Coastal Kitchen and/or that filet to Navigator. 

No.  Sabrina will change her tune when RC adds STAR CLASS to the NAV !  

[Lovetocruise2002]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Sabrina will change her tune if RC added Coastal Kitchen and/or that filet to Navigator. 

 

36 minutes ago, WAAAYTOOO said:

No.  Sabrina will change her tune when RC adds STAR CLASS to the NAV !  

Yes on both accounts!