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Joey Tribbiani: If he doesn't like you, then this is all just a moo point. Rachel Greene: Huh? A moo point? Joey Tribbiani: Yeah, it's like a cow's opinion, you know, it just doesn't matter. It's "moo".

I would add a 3rd ship to the poll ... completely free from vaccine consideration ... I would be onboard without reservation. To quote Billy Joel: "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun" ??

600 on board (I'm surprised it's that high) and one very unpopular CDC rep https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/trial-cruise-royal-caribbean-covid-19-safety-protocols/index.html?cid=external-feeds_iluminar_newsbreak Someone snapped a pic of the CDC rep http://aintitbalenews.com/aibn-content/uploads/2012/03/586911-wfrr5.jpg

Symphony is currently testing and hopefully confirming the theory of buoyancy.

Perhaps I wasn't clear (Sometimes I'm not), I wasn't calling for an unvaccinated cruise ... just one in which it wasn't a factor. Pre-March 13, 2020 rules, no segregation, no testing, no paranoia ... just a cruise. A sailing that nobody was worried about being near "Those people", just a cruise.

I'll be really mad if Symphony doesn't pass the buoyancy test...we're scheduled to sail Sep 18. ?

I find it very interesting that the ships that have recently had 2 passengers and another ship with I believe it was 8 crew, and everyone is fully vaccinated STILL had cases on board. With this being said with the amount of reading we have done, testing positive can refer to anything from a cold all the way up to Covid 19. So for those who have posted they will NOT cruise on any ship that passengers that are not vaccinated, this proves that even with 100% vaccinated it can still be on the ship. Possibly some of these people may only be asymptomatic. Or there have been people who have had Covid 19 and have the antibodies. Of which we read that Cleveland Clinic has said the antibodies are as good as having the vaccine. So is it fair to treat those folks with the antibodies different then those who have been vaccinated? My thoughts have always been the US government and the media have never support the cruise lines, the media never talks about the virus that have sicken large numbers of persons in Las Vegas. But let something go wrong on a cruise ship and it is all over the news, they can not talk about it enough. Also, last I heard people are able to go to Disney now without masks, my question there is are the asking for proof of vaccines to enter? Or are the testing everyone that enters Disney? There are more people in Disney at a time then on a cruise ship. If you read the print on a box of masks it states that this will NOT prevent Covid 19, masks don't work. It is sad to say but the government has used the virus as a political control button and has terrified people to the point that most have forgotten the majority of folks do have an immune system. I completely understand there are also folks who have very low immune systems and by all means should take all precautions. I also understand the cruise lines are trying to get up and running again and to accomplish this they will have to cave to some of the demands of the CDC, hopefully with the courts ruling in favor of Florida over the CDC this will get things to calm so everyone can cruise again. Look at Florida's track record through this pandemic, they have done a fantastic job, and did NOT follow the CDC or government guidelines. Also, to those who said they will not cruise unless everyone is vaccinated, they may want to think about everyday life next time they go to a store or a game I guarantee there are more the 50% of the people there are NOT vaccinated. Besides if you are vaccinated this is YOUR protection from getting the virus, so you are covered. Don't worry about others around you because once again you are covered! Just some thoughts that you might consider.

???

I still would like to see studies done on Casinos where I think there are some similarities to cruising. There are those people that may never leave a large casino to go anywhere else in Vegas and gamble, eat, watch a show, with many of the same people indoors. To me that is a very similar experience to cruise ship. Seems covid could spread indoors in crowded gambling floor with people in close contact just as easy as a cruise ship. And I know they say the ventilation system on planes keeps fresh air circulating but logic would dictate that Covid has spread on long flights but we very rarely hear about air travel and Covid risk because I have flown at least 10 times in pandemic and American always had full flights with middle seats filled. You have never seen a big push to shut down air travel because of the unions and lobbyists

Anyone else find it encouraging that the first ship to test sail out of the US is the "Freedom" otS? Also, I think the CDC required the test sails just to get free cruises for their staff... LOL.

I keep hearing this idea that the cruise lines that cater to families during the summer have a desire to run 95-100% vaccinated sailings out of FL. While I think that they stated as much to meet the CDCs guidelines, now that the CDC guidelines will not be binding and just suggestions, we will see where the cruise lines stand now. I know cruise lines cannot afford bad PR on Covid cases but zero Covid is not possible on cruises now. The CDC is a terribly run organization. That is how you got them saying it was a less than 10% chance to catch Covid outdoors when it was actually less than 1% chance. Then they said they were taking an aggregate of internal studies. Ridiculous. And with masking, there are zero controlled randomized trials that prove efficacy of cloth mask but yet the CDC treats this as religion that shall not be challenged. There are only models. Just one look at japan where mask compliance is very high among populace but yet they had a big increase of Covid cases the last few months. AND the CDC “emergency” meeting on vaccines and heart inflammation amount younger people has now been delayed twice. now, from a business standpoint, I am a solid believer that businesses should be allowed to set their own terms of service. I believe DeSantis should carve out an exception However, also from a business standpoint, how willing is Royal to turn away business from families this summer? They have to do their own internal risk analysis to determine their policies and I promise you that the DeSantis law isn’t the only factor. Will they lose business from families if making vaccination standard too high for them to reach and then require masking of children which is not necessary? Will they lose business from those that would rather be on a 100% vaccinated sailing? What is best possible vaccination rate on a given sailing out of FL given the age demographic of that sailing? These all are factors that Royal must consider when determining vaccine policies. Not just DeSantis. the biggest challenge through all this is public perception. Covid cases will be on cruise ships moving forward. It’s endemic. Unless they test 100% of passengers daily, there will be unknown Covid cases on the ship. There will also be know cases of Covid. The expectation can not be that zero Covid will be on all ships that sail. Never gonna happen. A responsible media that’s not fear porn driven would point out that cruise lines have proper protocols in place that didn’t exist with The Princess when there were so many unknowns. Times have changed. Covid is on the way to being endemic. On its way to a mild infection for most.

What will you be selling? I might be interested if we’re on the same cruise. ??????

Well let me say that at this juncture that I have no faith in anything coming from the CDC or Lancet.

Thank you for clarification though I could see both factors in play because it was not just essential flights flying unless you think my trips to see customers were vital to the US...lol. Of course this proves even moreso that cruise lines were singled out.

I wonder how long it will take for the public to hear the results of the test cruise. I also wonder if any of the volunteer crew onboard will take videos....I'm much curious. Plus...if they're volunteering to act like passengers, is this like a mini vacation? These are the real questions. lol

at this point sail for the ship not the ports

I know. But an unvaccinated cruise would be fantastic for science.

I can confirm that this was the case. We did take off our masks when we got to the beach/lunch destination.

Oh it would be a shame to cancel this excursion! I loved it! You are right though, things will certainly change (probably 37 times) between now and then.

No worries - I know what you mean @WAAAYTOOO. The correct word is "since the injunction" or since Judge Merryday ordered the CSO enjoined. That means it is unenforceable....... after July 18th, not before. The CSO is still in force and will remain so for now. The simple answer to your direct question, therefore, is no. Merryday has given the CDC a chance to offer an alternative CSO. The parties have to talk about it through mediation between the FL's State's Attorney and CDC lawyers. If a suitable alternative agreeable to all parties arises, Judge Merryday has approval authority and can reinstate the CSO in it's new form if it checks all the legal boxes. Before mediation begins, the CDC has to submit its alternative to the court by July 2nd then mediation starts again with Judge Porcelli. Anything the CDC might mandate in it's modified CSO - again, only within their authority under applicable law to do that and it has to be backed up by scientific studies - the Judge has final say on whether he is satisfied and the parties can move forward with mediation. If he is satisficed with the outcome of mediation between the parties, he can vacate the injunction, ostensibly before July 18th, allowing a new CSO to take effect. If the CDC gets over that really high bar in the time frame Merryday gave them to do that, I'll be surprised. If mediation produces an updated CSO that FL agrees with before July 18th, I'll be surprised. Lawyers will lawyer and FL's smell blood in the water. They'll go for the kill (the CSO that is). I think that outcome (the CSO is unenforceable in FL and no alternative CSO that both parties agree on has arisen), has the highest probability of occurring. But, I repeat for emphasis, enjoined (unenforceable) only in FL. For cruise ships sailing out of FL ports, barring a new CSO that has legal and enforceable mandates under existing US Code, the CSO will become a set of recommendations and guidance. TBF, there is some good stuff in the CSO. Not all of it is malarkey. A good deal of what's in the CSO is the same stuff that is in the Healthy Sail Panel recommendations minus the regulatory hoop jumping and unworkable enforcement authority usurped by the CDC. That's the key issue for Merryday. In looking back at all this it is having the government unlawfully breathing down your neck when other factors provide the impetus for the cruise lines to set reasonable safety and health standards and comply with them.

I have enjoyed this discussion. I don't see this as a privacy issue. To me it is about the foundation that the United States was built upon and about discrimination. Are we going to have different rights for the vaccinated and the non vaccinated? I don't know about the created equal part but the last part should be valued and protected. The second paragraph of the United States Declaration of Independence starts as follows: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

I have Allure booked for February 2023, can’t wait to experience the new terminal!! Thanks for all the updates; just adds to the excitement!

Carnival has better food. The newer ships with 7+ day sailing durations attract the same crowd as RC. The Carnival casino program is more organized then RCs players club. RC has a far superior suite program and the loft suite option just puts them in a separate league. Personally I wouldn’t hesitate to sail on a newer carnival ship and the experience is as good or in some cases better then any RC option. As others have said, the older ships on shorter sailings are filled with the drunk/party crowd and you cannot use this as a basis for comparison.

We have done it a few times. You basically get whatever incentive the ship/Royal is offering and make your deposit on board. They will send it to your travel agent for you for the rest of the paperwork and such. Sometimes you get a lower deposit or maybe onboard credit. Every time we cruise, we take a list of possible weeks and itineraries that we think we want to do so that we are ready to pick one if the deal is right. Sometimes if you can move your selection up or down a week or two, you can get a better deal. It also helps to look up some pricing ahead of time so you know a "ballpark" figure to compare to the NextCruise offer(s)

I would go with c. I also agree with cruisellama that cleaning is important, but I think we can all agree that RC has been VERY good at keeping things clean even pre-pandemic. I think that at some point, we will all need to go back to weighing individual risks whenever we do any activity, whether it's going on a cruise or crossing a street. The vaccines are protective, so if I'm vaccinated, I don't much care who else is or is not.

I like a modified (c) that includes all the additional cleaning protocols. Rationale: We were on the last Liberty of the Seas cruise before shutdown (early March 2020). The ship was immaculate. I had a side discussion with some restaurant staff about the extra working due to cleaning. They told me that it is a lot of work, but in their opinion, should always be done in food services side. We had a large family group about 13, and no one picked up any of the typical cruise crud during that trip. In fact, in just observing other passengers, we didn't hear the sniffling or coughing you usually hear in the pubic areas. The crew was on top of everything out of order. No masks yet, full ship, and certainly appeared all were healthy. Anicdotal observation, but it was the perception we were left with.

I think the drink vouchers loaded on to the Seapass is a great idea as you are able to use the vouchers at any time during the day. We are D+ and would receive up to 5 free drinks per day which is plenty for us. If we want any more than that we would be happy to pay for them. ? It will also reduce the congestion in the DL in the evenings, which is also good. ??

Supposed to be on SY 8-21-21. Hopefully she will be ready to go !!

But this is a case of construction workers living on a dusty old ferry that surely isn't that up to the cleanliness standards of a cruise ship. Also their social patterns will be a lot different (hanging out in close contact with the same people every day at work, then over a few beers that night). Plus despite it being a big ship, I would imagine they all were confined to one portion of the ship. The fact it was only 33% (with 46% being asymptomatic) is actually a good result.

My understanding is that it could be ANY type of room that shows up on the "balcony" option page.

We sailed with a group of 19 family members. We were seated at 2 tables - a table of 10 and a table of 9 - right next to each other. Each table technically had different wait staff (which was amazing!) but we were encouraged to sit at either table each night so we had a chance to visit with everyone throughout the cruise.

Not to mention a cruise like this where your objective is determine what the occurrence rate of COVID is among passengers and crew on a cruise ship without any mitigation measures v. SARS2 would be unethical. Yeah, it would be interesting with that ship as a control group so to speak but if you're actually going to set up a serious study, it goes through peer review among a panel that is part of the sponsoring scientific organization, e.g. the CDC, JAMA, Science and Nature, Lancet. Here's some useful data that we already have: I linked to a study, released just this month I believe in JAMA, in another thread that looked retrospectively at this using a cruise ship sailing out of Greece and Turkey in early March of 2020. Recall that the WHO had not yet declared a pandemic and most countries in February and March hadn't imposed any mitigation measures or if they had done so they were limited. It had roughly 3000 passengers and crew. The estimated R(0) following the first detected and reported COVID case was north of 2.0 before the ship was quarantined in a Greek port and sick/asymptomatic infected passengers were debarked. This means infections on this studied ship grew at an exponential rate very quickly ...... doubled (X2), then X4, then X16 and so forth. If I remember the data over 30% of the pax and crew on that ship became infected within a matter of days from recorded case #1. Infections were highest among crew that had higher rates of per-person face to face contact among each other at their bars, clubs and quarters than paying passengers. A cruise ship with zero mitigation measures and a passenger manifest of unvaccinated naïve hosts would be a SARS2/infectious disease nightmare. Even now. Infections are infections even though we are dealing with them much more effectively than we were 18 months ago. if anything, the virus has become more transmissible over time. I have heard that there are on-going studies looking at large gatherings and trying to model a safe vaccination rate. Is it 50% of 1000 people, 80% of 2000? Hard to say but that's being looked at. My gut tells me the cruise lines have an idea of what vaccination rate produces and acceptable level of positive COVID rapid antigen tests over a range of numbers of pax on a ship's manifest. Variables are hard to control but one could come up with something to go on that is better than nothing.

Thanks! We are booking with a travel agent so definitely got some discounts in that way! Having previously cruised with and without the use of agents, we've discovered that we love our travel agent and will never go back to not using her!

I think what you might have seen would have been called the Captain's table. I saw once on formal night he was there with guest (Pinnacles or back before they had that status, most nights sailed) along with some other staff. I think the the highest I've seen and have sat at is 10 , but they might have upto 12.

We booked our 3rd cruise through Next Cruise while on Enchantment. It was an okay experience. I enjoyed the $500 OBC we got (the biggest perk in booking on the ship) and the chance to talk to someone was nice. I will say, it's like anything else in life, experience in booking does depend on the agent. While the agent we had on Enchantment wasn't bad, I do wish she had been more informative. Compared to an agent we spoke to on Liberty, the Enchantment agent felt like she was just there to press buttons. The agent on Liberty was able to talk about what to do at certain ports, what ports were best for flying in, what ships had what features, and why we might even like ships we hadn't considered. She also knew a little bit about Celebrity's itineraries. I already know I plan to make a couple of trips by the desk on our next trip to talk to several people and ask a million questions. TL;DR - worth it for the OBC and chance to speak to a potentially uber knowledgeable human face to face; experience varies by agent.

I love kids, however this is a discussion about vaccinated vs. unvacinated. I don't think the reason for not being vaccinated has any bearing on the question. If it does, then what about adults who cannot take it for medical reasons? The separation is for health reasons, not a punishment. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, fair or unfair. It just seems totally inconsistent if the reason a person is not vaccinated matters, then the entire purpose of the exercise becomes invalid.

November is quite a long time from now, as far as cruise protocols go. With as frequently as things have been evolving later, I think it's just too early to expect answers to all of these questions. Final payment isn't even due until early August, and Cruise With Confidence protects you until 48 hours prior to sailing.

Just carry on two bottles of wine when you board the ship and keep them in your stateroom. Nightcap assured!

RC excursions will have full mask use. We found that people in Bahamas and Mexico were wearing masks in most situations. Expect to be wearing masks when you leave the ship.

We have canceled and rebooked many times and have never been told enough is enough.

You truncated the most eye-opening one One is left to wonder, given the persistent risk of transmission of a communicable disease and, in fact, the frequent, debilitating, and sometimes deadly history of transmission of a communicable disease, whether the director of CDC could have — or, perhaps, should have — generally shut down sexual intercourse in the United States or, at the very least, imposed in accord with Section 264(a) strict requirements for inspection, disinfection, sanitation, and “other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary” to reduce to “zero,” for example, the human-to-human transmission of AIDS or syphilis or herpes

One thing we can be sure about , it's not the final protocols. No need to worry, it will change so many times more.

Me too - booked for Mar ‘23. Originally on the Mar ‘22 from Galveston , now departing FLL. Stayed with the ship but had to buy a plane ticket for ‘22. Really hope I can leave from Galveston in ‘23

Welp, I just read all 124 pages of the ruling. My key takeaway has nothing to do with a return to cruising for us. I'll get to that: In rendering his ruling, Merryday focused right in on the CDC's authority to issue both the NSO and the CSO. There is probably 80 pages on this subject alone yet it is only one of the five claims addressed. Why? The central issue for Merryday in this case is ruling on whether an executive agency (the CDC) has the constitutional authority to impose what Merryday characterizes as an unlawful exercise of law making granted to Congress. He goes on to say, the CSO is, for all intent and purpose a law. It looks like a law, is filed like a law in the Federal Registry and is enforceable with penalties under the law ...... ITS A LAW - the CDC has no authority to make laws under any of sections or subsections of US Code that the CDC asserts is the basis for the CSO. In fact, he absolutely blows out of the water the arguments advanced by CDC lawyers, quoting them and showing exactly why they are wrong interpretations of previous and pertinent rulings that address the authority of the executive to make laws. His ruling therefore has significant implications on limiting the administrative powers of the executive branch. He bemoans the undeniable drift towards an administrative state over the last 150 years that has become inappropriately ruled by administrators who are accountable to no one. HIs words in this regard in his ruling are compelling, powerful and far reaching. Merryday is putting his stamp on stopping this drift where Congress is unempowered and the executive is empowered. He rightfully states that this is not what a constitutional republic is about. OK, having got that out of the way lets address some of the other more mundane but nonetheless important issues: If I'm reading the ruling correctly, it is so sound, so based on documented legal precedents going back 100s of years wrt to the limited powers of health authorities to act in the public health's interest (and there is a ton of case law on this), that I don't see what the basis of an appeal might be. Federal judges don't like their rulings over-turned by the USC. They'll go to great lengths to make that so. See my paragraphs above. It is foundational to Merryday's ruling and makes it very hard to appeal. The government might try but the next step is the Supremes. They'll get laughed out of court. While Merryday enjoined the CSO it remains in force for FL sailings through July 18th. IMO, that means there won't be any immediate changes. Let's see how this percolates over the weekend. I'm speculating but I think the lines may politely but very firmly work with the CDC to come up with something that looks way more like the Healthy Sail Panel's recommended scheme. Stuff like port agreements, test sailings v. 90/95, passenger limits at least at the extremes they are currently set may disappear as requirements and remain as recommendations. If that happens, it would be to advance the speed by which the lines can ready their ships and start sailing. Vaccinations? Merryday goes a long way in his ruling touting them as a basis upon which the cruise lines should be able to get safely rolling again. If anything, In FL, I see a continuation of the requirement to be vaccinated to cruise because that approach is working elsewhere to contain outbreaks and make them manageable if they occur - Singapore sailings policy not withstanding but there are other reasons vaccination requirements are eased there. The Desantis ruling continues to run afoul of the blitheringly obvious benefits to vaccinating travelers on cruise ships but, if anything, the Merryday ruling bolsters FL's claim that state authority trumps federal authority unlawfully enacted. There is no federal mandate for vaccination. Its recommended. Therefore, the applicable law get down to EEOC regulations that permit businesses to establish their own policies for regulating work place halth and safety as long as it isn't discriminatory. So far, that's been upheld in the TX case. My view that the Desantis bad won't stand up to a court challenge. Hard to say how this will pan out. It's an open question. As of now, it appears RCL isn't going to confront Desantis. That could change. Only cruise line sailings from FL ports are affected by the current Merryday ruling. The CSO remains in effect everywhere else .... but I suspect not for long. State's AGs will move to have the CSO enjoined where the states have maritime regulatory jurisdiction; the Merryday ruling goes a long way in establishing that federal agencies need to tread lightly on federalism and state's rights. Merryday did not rule on Alaska's and Texas' request to join the suit on the basis that the grounds for inclusion "were unclear." Not for long but both state's AGs will move in a different direction as above. I could see a rapid but very controlled expansion of sailing from all the other non-Canadian ports we've been talking about. Expansion will be logistically limited but I'll bet the corporate wheels are already turning. I may have more to post on this but right now my brain is tired.

@Galveston SteveThanks for keeping us updated. Exciting.

There was a little more progress yesterday. The pool company's lighting truck showed up, and they installed the lights on the steps. I guess the thought was why wait for the stone crew when they can get it done now. I'll take it! They pried off a couple small pavers on the step and drilled through the concrete to fish the wires through. They did the same to get the wires through to the deck level. The stone guys will just have to cut a track for the wires on the underside of the replacement stone that came off and the two little ones that were removed. The original plan was for there to be one light at the center, underside of each step overhang. The deck wound up being a couple inches shorter than originally planned, so the light under the bottom edge would almost be at ground level once the sod is laid. The fix was to space the lights on the same level. In hindsight, the lights aren't necessary. We thought it would be really dark in that area of the yard with the kitchen blocking the light from the patio, but since there is a can light directly above the kitchen, it's not dark at all. We really don't need the step lights from a functional standpoint, but I still think it will be a nice finishing touch and am glad we added them to the project.

I’d like a clean sheet design too. I do hope she has a Central Park kind of thing though. That’s just spectacular and I miss it on every non oasis class I go on.

Time for a clean start...

This time lapse video starts in Skagway and ends near Haines which is on the other side of the channel. Haines would be on the right in the video but it is tucked away in a small bay so you don't see it in this video going in this direction.

Asking about a CD is like asking which wine do you like? Chicken or fish? Stella or Red Stripe? Blue or Yellow? An old guy like me will most likely have a different opinion compared to a younger cruiser. An American might not 'get' a dry British sense of humor. A European might not 'get' an American CD's jokes.